RNZAF Boeing 757 breaks down when carrying PM. RNZAF must have an atrocious dispatch reliability figure.

Forums › Off topic › RNZAF Boeing 757 breaks down when carrying PM. RNZAF must have an atrocious dispatch reliability figure.

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#1658823 27-Oct-2016 11:33

amiga500: Another bad decision is buying the new T6 trainers. All training could be done in the US or Australia at military or civilian training providers. NZ makes so many poor decisions.

Why?

amiga500

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#1658825 27-Oct-2016 11:34

If they did not buy the new T6 trainers and the C17's & had the restructure, there would be hundreds of millions available to buy something more useful and the Gulfstream ER. Even Hillary would be secretly envious.

MikeB4

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#1658842 27-Oct-2016 11:41

amiga500: If they did not buy the new T6 trainers and the C17's & had the restructure, there would be hundreds of millions available to buy something more useful and the Gulfstream ER. Even Hillary would be secretly envious.

So you don't have a real reason. I think your contributions have another reason. So I will let you play in the corner

frankv

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#1658884 27-Oct-2016 12:10

I do agree that the T6s are the wrong thing. It seems silly to do training on expensive turbo-props with tandem seating, when the initial training could be done in aircraft 1/10 the price.

Part of the issue is that in peace-time, the vast majority of what a military organisation does is to train people. If you took that away, you might as well close down the RNZAF altogether. Which you might regret in war-time.

Why not do the civilian pilot training in NZ?

MikeB4

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#1658892 27-Oct-2016 12:15

being unprepared usually leads to regret. The T6's do more than just train pilots.

Dingbatt

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#1658933 27-Oct-2016 12:47

amiga500: If they did not buy the new T6 trainers and the C17's & had the restructure, there would be hundreds of millions available to buy something more useful and the Gulfstream ER. Even Hillary would be secretly envious.

So the RNZAF had already disbanded Squadron numbers 1, 2, 14 & 75 as well as 102 and 141 Flts. Reduced it's uniformed personnel from about 5K to about 2K. Reduced its bases from 7 to 3. What sort of restructuring are you proposing?
Your suggestions are all pie-in-the-sky and achieve very little of the core outputs required of the NZDF by the NZ Government.
To take your suggestions to the ultimate, lets sack all the soldiers and just use mercenaries when we need them. Sell all our warships and just use inter-island ferries and Taiwanese trawlers when we need to.

Part of the NZDF's mandate is the raise, TRAIN and maintain a standing force to assist in projecting NZ's national will. Overseas training has been tried in the past and, in most cases, found wanting.

Stick to video games.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

BlakJak

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#1658935 27-Oct-2016 12:49

Dingbatt:
amiga500: If they did not buy the new T6 trainers and the C17's & had the restructure, there would be hundreds of millions available to buy something more useful and the Gulfstream ER. Even Hillary would be secretly envious.

So the RNZAF had already disbanded Squadron numbers 1, 2, 14 & 75 as well as 102 and 141 Flts. Reduced it's uniformed personnel from about 5K to about 2K. Reduced its bases from 7 to 3. What sort of restructuring are you proposing?
Your suggestions are all pie-in-the-sky and achieve very little of the core outputs required of the NZDF by the NZ Government.
To take your suggestions to the ultimate, lets sack all the soldiers and just use mercenaries when we need them. Sell all our warships and just use inter-island ferries and Taiwanese trawlers when we need to.

Part of the NZDF's mandate is the raise, TRAIN and maintain a standing force to assist in projecting NZ's national will. Overseas training has been tried in the past and, in most cases, found wanting.

Stick to video games.

Nicely written.

This thread is full of so many trollworthy comments. I'm about to unsubscribe from it. Arrrgh!

No signature to see here, move along...

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frankv

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#1659005 27-Oct-2016 13:28

MikeB4:

The T6's do more than just train pilots.

Really? What?

PolicyGuy

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#1659006 27-Oct-2016 13:28

oxnsox: The 757 has, I believe, great presence when its out in the world representing NZ. Certainly looks better on an apron than a 737 or bizjet. And the model is good for a few years yet.

Really its limiting factor is range. I didn't think they still flew them to the ice after an incident a few years back.

Getting C-17 's can't really be an option, realistically you'd want 2, in order to meet availability requirements, but we'd likely under utilize even 1. Whilst a C-17 overcomes range issues, it's weight isn't ideal into some of our island neighbour airfields.
A-400 's are lighter, more modern, have the range requirements, and could load LAVs or an NH-90. And its a purchase that isn't associated with politically cuddling up to America. But that's where a P-8 purchase comes in. ;-)

Flagging an upgrade to Airforce assets sometime over the next decade hasn't really addressed the issues, but appears to. Still there'll be some other airframe options about in the next few years with soo many C-130 and P-3 airframes up for replacement around the globe

The 757s could be fitted with winglets - most airline ones have been - which would give 5%-6% more range. They could also have one or more extra fuel tanks fitted in the cargo hold (like these ones).
These two changes would provide a much greater range capability, but would cost some money not in the current budget. That might be a viable "B757 Replacement" option: a major refurbishment would get at least another decade out of them and there isn't really a replacement in the market - Google 'middle of the market aircraft'

We can't buy C-17s. AFAIK, there is just one white-tail airframe unsold, and the production line is closed. If we wanted C-17 capability, we could maybe persuade the RAAF to buy the one left on NZ's behalf and do a deal for RNZAF crews, technicians &c to be embedded in the RAAF C-17 squadron for an agreed share of flight hours. But as Oxnsox said, they're the wrong aircraft for the RNZAF anyway.

The P-3 replacement is a completely different issue.
I hope they might buy some Kawasaki P-1 (four jet engines), an aircraft specifically designed for LRMP, but expect we'll get Boeing P-8 for 'alliance' reasons.
A pity, the P-1 looks better for NZ's purposes and should be much cheaper.

[edit: add P-3]

amiga500

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#1659111 27-Oct-2016 15:58

What I am trying to say is that the NZ military has a similar situation to that of Great Britain with very little hardware and man power, but more than enough admirals, generals, and air marshals. And other high ranks!

This was the situation in Britain in 2013. In World War II a small group of destroyers and corvettes often had a commander in charge. Jokes were made about this in the Yes Prime Minister program that was made in the 1980's.

Obviously, things had got no better - unless you were a Captain or Admiral of course. Then there is the old British staff officers army joke 'If bread is the staff of life, what is the life of staff. Answer One BIg Loaf.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2465608/Royal-Navys-260-captains-just-19-warships-Defence-cuts-15-times-commanding-officers-vessels.html

Royal Navy's 260 captains for just 19 warships: Defence cuts see 15 times as many commanding officers as vessels

There are now 40 admirals and 260 captains in the Royal Navy
However, as a result of defence cuts, there are only 19 active warships

Jase2985

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#1659138 27-Oct-2016 16:49

you do realise this is not the UK right? so many people from the UK come here and either think things should be like they were back home or continually compare them to back home.

how much actual experience do you have in how the defence force actually works? have you worked there or are you on the outside looking in at only what you see in the media

BlakJak

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#1659191 27-Oct-2016 17:30

Jase2985:
you do realise this is not the UK right? so many people from the UK come here and either think things should be like they were back home or continually compare them to back home.

how much actual experience do you have in how the defence force actually works? have you worked there or are you on the outside looking in at only what you see in the media

I suggest no internal exposure. Else he'd know that NZDF is nowhere near as top-heavy as he thinks, that there's a significant number of tri-service roles that can be filled by anyone with rank equivalency and appropriate skills, and that attempting to compare the defence situations of the two countries are in no way similar. For example the RN is about ~40,000 pers. The whole NZDF is less than 15,000 and the RNZN is less than 2500.

The UK represents a population of about 65 million relative to our 4.5 Million.

The UK is in a far different military location with quite a different strategic footprint.

There are comparisons to be made but some of the ideas being posted here are just plain stupid, failing to take both political and strategic aspects into consideration. Read the NZDF white paper for a start!.

No signature to see here, move along...

Jase2985

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#1659260 27-Oct-2016 20:31

@amiga500 you realise that captain is a rank, not necessarily a person in-charge of a ship, ie not all captains would be the captain of a ship as they would be different branches/trades.

The RNZN has 0 captains for its 11 ships, their commanding officers are either commanders, lieutenant commanders or lieutenants (size of ship and crew dependant)

The RNZN is very heavy on Lieutenants but because officer promotions are generally time based and there are is no real cap on their numbers thats where they get their numbers from.

BlakJak:Read the NZDF white paper for a start!.

why would anyone want to do something so silly as read the white paper when they can just spout uninformed drivel

frankv

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#1659426 28-Oct-2016 07:24

amiga500:

There are now 40 admirals and 260 captains in the Royal Navy
However, as a result of defence cuts, there are only 19 active warships

The whole point of a peacetime navy (or army or air force) is to be able expand quickly in times of strife. Imagine if there were only 19 captains and the RN needed to activate some of its currently inactive ships.

So you need a command structure designed for and capable of managing a large force, but no large force (right now). And you do a lot of training, which means you have numbers of experienced, senior personnel as instructors (and a command structure for them) who aren't actually fulfilling operational roles.

Pumpedd

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#1659455 28-Oct-2016 08:45

I believe Amiga is attempting to troll...

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