Article on Stuff opens a can of religious and secular worms!

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#1009298 19-Mar-2014 19:41

turnin:
Klipspringer: If we really want to go down this route, ie stop religion completely in schools, we should stop allowing our kids to sing "God defend New Zealand" in Schools. Its a little contradictory I think.

To be accurate it should be Nato, USA or the NZDF but the all have too many syllables

I used to stir my ex brother-in-law (25 years in the army) about that... Told him the reason it was "god defend New Zealand" was because the NZDF couldn't. :D

JimmyH

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#1009300 19-Mar-2014 19:45

Klipspringer:

I was referring to KiwiNZ's post about the big bang theory. We can't have "lessons" about the Big bang at schools but deny discussions about religion. In his example the teacher teaches the class' "A lesson on the origins of the universe". But when the pupil mentions a God, she tells the student to take that conversation home. Jaxson summed it up nicely, all these subjects should be wrapped up in 'No one really knows' tape.

But you right about scientific theories. Some are in proven, yet well sustained and we accept them as accurate. But at the end of the day, they all just theories.

Of course you can.

In science they teach scientific theories and methodology - including how to set up a theory, test it and (hopefully) falsify it. Some of the greatest scientists are those who came along and with meticulous attention to evidence and analysts managed to overturn an established theory and replace it with a better one. Teaching a child how to establish a hypothesis that tries to explain something, collect evidence, and see whether the hypothesis holds up in light of the evidence is a pretty critical skill in the modern world. I'm happy for it to be taught in schools. And I'm pretty happy to accept the theory of (say) gravity as the best explanation of why I stick to the planet instead of floating away - until someone comes up with an inconsistency viz-a-vis the evidence followed by a better explanation.

On the other hand, in many parts of the world, those who produce evidence that conflicts with religious theory (call it doctrine if you will) tend to get persecuted, jailed or killed. Like poor old Galileo at the hands of the Catholics.

If I had a child in school I would be happy for them to be taught the scientific method and the current scientific theories (in context). In fact, I would expect it, and be pretty grumpy if it was omitted from their education.

However, inculcating them with a particular preferred religious dogma isn't something I would happy for the state to do. That's something that should be left up to individuals and their families.

Incidentally, no scientific theories have been "proven". An accepted current theory is just one that seems to explain what we know at the current time, and hasn't (yet) been disproven. You can't prove a theory beyone all doubt, you can only disprove one.

Sidestep

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#1009307 19-Mar-2014 19:56

turnin:
Klipspringer: If we really want to go down this route, ie stop religion completely in schools, we should stop allowing our kids to sing "God defend New Zealand" in Schools. Its a little contradictory I think.

To be accurate it should be Nato, USA or the NZDF but the all have too many syllables

Unfortunately neither the USA, Nato nor the NZDF will do much defending of NZ.. best stick with God for that.

gzt

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#1009468 19-Mar-2014 23:46

sdav: I think it is is good and should be taught.

Fair comment. A big part of the problem is that the teachers of this topic are not professionals. They can and do say crazy/nasty things to children.

sdav: There was no way my parents could have taught me about Christianity because they weren't Christian! It was not a difficult leap to make in later life to be respectful of all religions and while that was because my parents taught me respect it was nice to have been taught parts of the bible.

Your parents were also not members of many other religions. These religions are not represented.

I suspect going back just a little way most religious ed in NZ schools was provided by mild Anglicans and a few mild Catholics here and there. Ie; very large mainstream religions with long history and professionally trained in mainstream theology and practice, mostly university trained, often with teaching experience, and often given this task in retirement.

Totally not the case for the evangelical start your own church franchise anywhere soul saving make it up as you go along etc etc. Big difference here.

The best thing your parents taught you was respect for other religions. How did they do that? It is my suspicion very few religions teach this, therefore it is needed.

gzt

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#1009490 20-Mar-2014 00:12

JimmyH: On the other hand, in many parts of the world, those who produce evidence that conflicts with religious theory (call it doctrine if you will) tend to get persecuted, jailed or killed. Like poor old Galileo at the hands of the Catholics.

You put that very badly. Galileo was himself a Catholic believer and would have seen himself as being harassed by the ignorant, not Catholics. I agree the exact same problem occurs today for people of many religions. The findings of Galileo were not in conflict with the founder of his religion at all.

insane

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#1009497 20-Mar-2014 00:44

So apart from the opt-in / opt-out argument, which Christian values, themes or stories specifically do people not want to be taught to their kids?

To me the values which Christian people I know have seem pretty good to me, but I guess that's subjective too

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#1009505 20-Mar-2014 01:32

insane: So apart from the opt-in / opt-out argument, which Christian values, themes or stories specifically do people not want to be taught to their kids?

The whole thing about Joseph's coat of many colours is really awful and was a staple of RE when I was young. This is R18 type stuff. There's not much that isn't.

To me the values which Christian people I know have seem pretty good to me, but I guess that's subjective too

The values which Christian people hold and demonstrate and those which a particular Christian religion or denomination believe are important and wish to teach to children in a classroom context are two different things.

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#1009522 20-Mar-2014 02:47

a lot of teachers don't like having religious education in schools - but are reluctant to stop it - or protest it - simply because it is time away from the classroom that can be used to get other work done (like marking, unit planning etc).

Back when I used to teach in NZ Primary schools I didn't allow Christian education in my classroom. There was an enormous uproar from a very small minority of parents about this but I stuck to my guns and refused it. There was only myself and one other teacher in the school at the time who refused Christian education - all other teachers valued the free time too much to protest (and of course some of those teachers may have been believers themselves so might have put some kind of value on this type of education)

In my school Christian education was only permitted between year 4 and 8.
I taught Year 8 so our schedule was far too busy with imporant things to get done that would have been of some real educational value.

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#1009551 20-Mar-2014 08:28

insane: So apart from the opt-in / opt-out argument, which Christian values, themes or stories specifically do people not want to be taught to their kids?

To me the values which Christian people I know have seem pretty good to me, but I guess that's subjective too

The belief that Christianity is RIGHT.

The belief that God made the earth.

The idea that all others who diagree go to Hell.

Should I go on?

FYI - I am a lapsed catholic, who still has a vague belief and dare I asy it, faith...but no specific religion or doctrine.

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Sidestep

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#1009567 20-Mar-2014 09:03

To me the values which Christian people I know have seem pretty good to me, but I guess that's subjective too

Values - Yes
One of the early submitters to the Stuff article touched on the futility of existence in an ever expanding & ultimately dying universe.
That has to be a key point in the God vs Science debate.
Why do we create religions? – to help make sense of things we don't understand.
It's comforting to know there's an all seeing Guy in the Sky who's taking care of business, righting wrongs, and ultimately rewarding us for our otherwise pointless efforts here on Earth.
Especially when life often seems confusing, arbitrary and unfair.
A quick glance at the comments, and “thumbs up – thumbs down” ratings shows that many of us - Stuff readers anyway- have replaced “religion”with “science”
Religious people freak out about that. Religions come with an inbuilt code of ethics. Pure science doesn't. Religious people worry about what will happen in a godless world, with no more rules.. no more values.

MikeB4

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#1009568 20-Mar-2014 09:05

Handsomedan:
insane: So apart from the opt-in / opt-out argument, which Christian values, themes or stories specifically do people not want to be taught to their kids?

To me the values which Christian people I know have seem pretty good to me, but I guess that's subjective too

The belief that Christianity is RIGHT.

The belief that God made the earth.

The idea that all others who diagree go to Hell.

Should I go on?

FYI - I am a lapsed catholic, who still has a vague belief and dare I asy it, faith...but no specific religion or doctrine.

There is a difference between dogma and values.

Klipspringer

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#1009644 20-Mar-2014 10:14

gzt:
insane: So apart from the opt-in / opt-out argument, which Christian values, themes or stories specifically do people not want to be taught to their kids?

The whole thing about Joseph's coat of many colours is really awful and was a staple of RE when I was young. This is R18 type stuff. There's not much that isn't.

R18 stuff? You have to be freaking kidding me.

Some of the children's shows on TV these days are far worse. And lets not forget all the other things kids are exposed to today in general life, video games etc ...

I can think of far worse story lines from Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings/The Hobbit etc ... But a story about a guy who was murdered by his brother due to jealousy. R18?

TinyTim

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#1009646 20-Mar-2014 10:18

Handsomedan:
The belief that God made the earth.

Is this similar to the belief that God is a physical being who lives in a physical place called heaven? And can mysteriously manipulate matter against the laws of physics? Does any Christian actually believe that?

Lyderies

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#1009648 20-Mar-2014 10:20

Klipspringer:
gzt:
insane: So apart from the opt-in / opt-out argument, which Christian values, themes or stories specifically do people not want to be taught to their kids?

The whole thing about Joseph's coat of many colours is really awful and was a staple of RE when I was young. This is R18 type stuff. There's not much that isn't.

R18 stuff? You have to be freaking kidding me.

Some of the children's shows on TV these days are far worse. And lets not forget all the other things kids are exposed to today in general life, video games etc ...

I can think of far worse story lines from Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings/The Hobbit etc ... But a story about a guy who was murdered by his brother due to jealousy. R18?

I think parents these days determine what is R18 for their kids these days, i have seen so many adults by there 8 years R18 games etc

I dont disagree that some of the teachings of the bible are great models to be worked with however most of the time i have seen people change and use it to there advantage, so why wouldnt someone teaching it to children also use it in there favour?

The world is filled with hypocrites and im damn sure i am one

I'm going to noob myself past judgement

MikeB4

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#1009649 20-Mar-2014 10:22

TinyTim:
Handsomedan:
The belief that God made the earth.

Is this similar to the belief that God is a physical being who lives in a physical place called heaven? And can mysteriously manipulate matter against the laws of physics? Does any Christian actually believe that?

As I keep saying .....

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