Smash and grabs at MHJ

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Ultimate Geek
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#3079887 26-May-2023 22:23

MikeB4:
You are right the old way worked, prisons were full and they have been full for decades. If we ignore the root causes they will continue to be full and the systems will continue to work.

Prisons will always be full. The more criminals out of society, the better for all honest citizens.

cruxis

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#3079894 27-May-2023 00:02

Well then maybe a new way is needed. NZ likes to compare itself to Singapore, So maybe a take ideas from them, The focus of deterrence is strong in Singapore and they take pride in having a judicial capital and corporal punishment system. Could be a vote for in the next election too. Considering how many kiwis are feeling.

When executed in public, corporal punishment provides a much better example than prison time. It deters crime effectively. Intense pain fills the offender with a desire to avoid pain in the future. The boredom of prison does not impart the same message. Physical punishment provides offenders with an immediate opportunity to change their behavior and join law-abiding society. Before incarcerated convicts can reform, they must first endure a clean version of hell that discourages their improvement and fails to impart the skills they will need when released. Government officials point to other countries’ struggles with drugs and crime, arguing that Singapore’s tough stance keeps the streets clean and safe.

Source http://www.corrections.com/news/article/28290-why-judicial-corporal-punishment-is-better-than-incarceration#:~:text=When%20executed%20in%20public%2C%20corporal%20punishment%20provides%20a,a%20desire%20to%20avoid%20pain%20in%20the%20future.

MikeB4

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#3079946 27-May-2023 08:30

Or maybe we look to the nations who collectively show the lowest crime rates for example the Nordic nations and Aotearoa before we go down the path of judicial violence. Despite the click baiting dramatisation the media are engaging in Aotearoa still ranks with the nations with the lowest crime rates.

So again let’s explore the root cause of crime in Aotearoa. Some clues for that, our poor education outcomes, social divide, poverty and poverty traps, our woeful mental health, marginalisation of groups such disabilities, language, criminal history, race and so on.

Rikkitic

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#3079957 27-May-2023 10:02

cruxis:

Well then maybe a new way is needed. NZ likes to compare itself to Singapore, So maybe a take ideas from them, The focus of deterrence is strong in Singapore and they take pride in having a judicial capital and corporal punishment system. Could be a vote for in the next election too. Considering how many kiwis are feeling.

When executed in public, corporal punishment provides a much better example than prison time. It deters crime effectively. Intense pain fills the offender with a desire to avoid pain in the future. The boredom of prison does not impart the same message. Physical punishment provides offenders with an immediate opportunity to change their behavior and join law-abiding society. Before incarcerated convicts can reform, they must first endure a clean version of hell that discourages their improvement and fails to impart the skills they will need when released. Government officials point to other countries’ struggles with drugs and crime, arguing that Singapore’s tough stance keeps the streets clean and safe.

Source http://www.corrections.com/news/article/28290-why-judicial-corporal-punishment-is-better-than-incarceration#:~:text=When%20executed%20in%20public%2C%20corporal%20punishment%20provides%20a,a%20desire%20to%20avoid%20pain%20in%20the%20future.

This kind of simple-minded retribution porn really irritates me. Singapore or Sweden or any other society cannot sensibly be directly compared to New Zealand or anywhere else in this manner. They are different societies with different dynamics. You cannot simply import one aspect of one country's punishment regime to another country and expect it to work in the same way. Caning criminals or locking them up may satisfy the revenge itch of the victims but it doesn't fix anything.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

OldGeek

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#3080006 27-May-2023 10:37

Rikkitic:

Caning criminals or locking them up may satisfy the revenge itch of the victims but it doesn't fix anything.

Locking up criminals ensures they are not out there re-offending. For serious crimes such as murder, manslaughter, rape etc. - especially for repeat offenders - this protects future new victims. Revenge for the offence is very much a secondary consideration. While in prison, attempts can be made to make eventual release less likely to re-offend but this is not the prime reason for imprisonment.

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MikeB4

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#3080010 27-May-2023 11:03

OldGeek:

Locking up criminals ensures they are not out there re-offending. For serious crimes such as murder, manslaughter, rape etc. - especially for repeat offenders - this protects future new victims. Revenge for the offence is very much a secondary consideration. While in prison, attempts can be made to make eventual release less likely to re-offend but this is not the prime reason for imprisonment.

Who has suggested that violent offenders should not be removed from society? There is a clear difference between crimes of violence and crimes dishonesty and theft. Incarceration for crimes of dishonesty and theft should can be dealt with using home detention and addressing the root causes. Putting these offenders in prison is more than likely to result in further offending because society never forgives someone who has served their time.Trying to find accommodation and employment for released prisoners is very difficult leading them in many cases to reoffend in order to live. The Steps to Freedom grant for released prisoners who have served more than 30 days is up to $350 one of. Try feeding and finding accommodation with that, its near impossible.

mkissin

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#3080014 27-May-2023 11:15

The worst thing is that a lot of (though obviously not all) crime is a product of poverty. Locking someone up costs an absolute truckload. That money is vastly better spent on building a fence at the top of the cliff, and producing a productive (and tax paying) member of society. But we won't do it.

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networkn

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#3080020 27-May-2023 11:50

Rikkitic:

This kind of simple-minded retribution porn really irritates me. Singapore or Sweden or any other society cannot sensibly be directly compared to New Zealand or anywhere else in this manner. They are different societies with different dynamics. You cannot simply import one aspect of one country's punishment regime to another country and expect it to work in the same way. Caning criminals or locking them up may satisfy the revenge itch of the victims but it doesn't fix anything.

I agree with your sentiment that different societies and different rules, not importing one particular element. A public caning feels like something I'd be OK with as a deterrent. I feel a balance needs to be struck between not filling prisons, and reducing crime.

I am all for stopping the issues at source, but there are people for whom no matter what they are given are going to find ways to be bad, and punishment is appropriate.

I also don't buy the bridge that every bad outcome is because said bad person is a victim of their circumstances. Ultimately, almost everyone has some choices. If you continuously make bad choices, you shouldn't be shielded from your consequences.

networkn

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#3080030 27-May-2023 12:01

mkissin:

The worst thing is that a lot of (though obviously not all) crime is a product of poverty. Locking someone up costs an absolute truckload. That money is vastly better spent on building a fence at the top of the cliff, and producing a productive (and tax paying) member of society. But we won't do it.

Poverty in NZ is measured as the poorest 10%. Using this, we will always have 'poverty' in NZ. In reality, Poverty in NZ isn't comparable to real poverty measured in the world as a whole.

I do not believe that the daily crime right now, is a consequence of a sudden change in circumstances for people like the cost of living crisis. These kids aren't breaking into dairies to feed their families who are at home starving without it. It's anti-social behaviour and an outlet for whatever negative emotions they are dealing with as a consequence of a build-up of things. It's continued because there aren't consequences and prevention being acted upon. There is a largely undetected mental health pandemic in NZ, I believe it's going to get much worse before it gets any better and sadly, I feel NZ isn't going to be a great place to live, compared to 10 years ago, for the foreseeable future due to the causes of it not being recognised, addressed and prioritised.

I don't think the current Government fully understands the significance and size of the issue, and doesn't have a clue how to make a plan to fix it, and less than zero chance of executing a plan even if they had one. If there is a change of Government at the next election, I don't feel this particular aspect will improve because whilst I think they are probably more capable of coming up with a plan and executing it, it's either not going to be considered a 'real' issue, or it will be given low or no priority, meaning in effect, no change regardless. That feels really discouraging to me. ( I am trying hard not to make it political, but this issue is at least a little bit related to Government priorities).

MikeB4

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#3080032 27-May-2023 12:09

This is not directed at anyone in particular. The lines of “everyone has choices” and “there is no real poverty in Aotearoa” are community comfort devices. They act against those who commit crime and those who are victims of crime. They attempt to absolve the community from responsibility for the issue and resolutions of the issue.

networkn

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#3080041 27-May-2023 12:42

MikeB4: This is not directed at anyone in particular. The lines of “everyone has choices” and “there is no real poverty in Aotearoa” are community comfort devices. They act against those who commit crime and those who are victims of crime. They attempt to absolve the community from responsibility for the issue and resolutions of the issue.

I'll challenge this. Whilst I disagree with how we measure it, I accept our definition of it, but also understand, that defined as a percentage it's not a problem that can be 'solved'.

If you have been to third-world countries, then you know what 'real' poverty is. Whilst there are kids going hungry in NZ (and I find that wildly unacceptable and support measures to resolve it) No-one dies of hunger in NZ (though there are other impacts not addressed solely with food). I do not consider that level of poverty acceptable and I'd never support NZ measuring or using that as a justification for not dealing with the poorest of NZ's population.

I'll admit to holding the view (in the past) that we shouldn't provide lunches in schools because it's a parent's responsibility. Someone once made a profound statement to me that has stuck with me ever since and seismically changed the way I thought about it (which I am eternally grateful for). That statement is 'you can't punish kids for their parents bad choices'. I am 100% behind school provided lunches now, in whatever form they take, regardless of the cost or resources required to do so. I support measures that support kids, but less supportive of the measures that provide parents with financial aid who then divert those resources away from their kids and into other priorities. I do understand that's an overly simplistic statement, because I don't want to write a novel on it.

I do not believe as a society in NZ we are looking to absolve our responsibility for child 'poverty' in NZ. I think those days are largely behind us, there is a small segment of our community who may feel that way, but they don't wag the dog. We have not made the progress in this area in the past 5+ years we should have given the opportunities that were available, but acknowledge some complicating factors in that (covid etc), but we are trending in the right direction overall, as a country, with attitudes and willingness and intention to resolve it.

Very little crime in NZ is committed by necessity. In the instances where it is, there are measures available to protect those people from the consequences of it.

mkissin

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#3080047 27-May-2023 12:53

So maybe deprivation is a better word for you then?

Even just in Auckland, you have a whole lot of people who just have no money spent on them. Their playgrounds are decaying, we're taking libraries and pool facilities away, the parents have no free time to nuture their kids. They may be able to continue to be alive, but so what? There's no joy in their lives.

Gangs step in to fill this gap. I believe that a lot of what we're seeing in the crime spikes is a result of two major things - (a) bored kids and (b) gang initiation. Both of those things would be at least significantly alleviated if we spent adequate money of providing a nourishing environment for families and kids to grow in.

You don't see this as much with affluent families and areas because they have the personal resources to provide this stuff themselves. But we've also taken away all of the methods people used to have for upwards mobility.

MikeB4

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#3080049 27-May-2023 13:05

There are degrees of poverty but those degrees do not remove what the degrees mean in the society in which the impoverished are attempting to live.

There are many root causes of crime and for the current spate of jewellery raids I feel that TikTok fame, copycat, alienation, mental health, family circumstance, poverty to name some are probably all root causes and symptomatic causes. However simply processing the offenders through the court system will only treat the symptoms the causes will continue and will be exacerbated.

gzt

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#3080071 27-May-2023 15:37

While it is one aspect among others, I suspect ram raiding retail premises was a logical diversification during covid. Homes on average were occupied more often limiting the opportunities for burglary. The retail ram raid technique became established.

elpenguino

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#3080074 27-May-2023 15:56

networkn:

I am all for stopping the issues at source, but there are people for whom no matter what they are given are going to find ways to be bad, and punishment is appropriate.

I also don't buy the bridge that every bad outcome is because said bad person is a victim of their circumstances. Ultimately, almost everyone has some choices. If you continuously make bad choices, you shouldn't be shielded from your consequences.

Ah , the myth that everyone has choices. Behind that idea is the conceit that ' I would never do things like that if I grew up in those circumstances around those people'. It's easy to take that view when you didn't grow up in the same way.

You might be surprised what bad things you (and all of us) are capable of when you're pushed and pushed.

However I'm not going to argue that humans are deterministic creatures either.

It saddens me that people in this thread would happily spend $100k per year to lock someone up but they begrudge spending half of that to help people before they end up in that situation.

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

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