Article on Stuff opens a can of religious and secular worms!

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#1009667 20-Mar-2014 10:37

TinyTim:
Is this similar to the belief that God is a physical being who lives in a physical place called heaven? And can mysteriously manipulate matter against the laws of physics? Does any Christian actually believe that?

I don't think many religions will agree with your statement that God is a physical being... Heaven and hell would not be physical either. IMO its all outside the physical boundaries and limitations of our universe as we know it.

Space and time before the big bang maybe? knowbody really knows.

Jaxson

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#1009678 20-Mar-2014 10:52

insane: So apart from the opt-in / opt-out argument, which Christian values, themes or stories specifically do people not want to be taught to their kids?

To me the values which Christian people I know have seem pretty good to me, but I guess that's subjective too

I think it's really important to remind people that religions, (Christianity being the major player in this country but not the only religion), do not have the monopoly on values and morals.

I find it really insulting to suggest that I'm not a good person because I don't align myself to a particular man made belief/faith system.

That's my views on that line of discussion...

Traditionally there are sensitive areas that people tip toe around, mainly to be polite but potentially with a bit of political correctness thrown in. Religion is one of those areas obviously, and most non religious people are happy for anyone to believe and practice whatever they like, as it's their business. Frankly though, bringing that business into the mainstream classes of a state school is pushing too far into the personal space of others.

I'm not against religious studies in school actually, (though it's Christian studies, not the study of religions), as long as it's an opt in program, where those children whose parents agree/wish get up and go to another location. Ideally this would be run as a club day type activity really, either before school, during lunch time or after school or over the weekend. Actually I'm not even sure if it's legal to take students out of actual school time to do this?

TinyTim

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#1009682 20-Mar-2014 10:57

Klipspringer:
TinyTim:
Is this similar to the belief that God is a physical being who lives in a physical place called heaven? And can mysteriously manipulate matter against the laws of physics? Does any Christian actually believe that?

I don't think many religions will agree with your statement that God is a physical being... Heaven and hell would not be physical either. IMO its all outside the physical boundaries and limitations of our universe as we know it.

For the avoidance of doubt - I didn't make a statement, I just asked if any Christian believed it. :-)

TinyTim

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#1009686 20-Mar-2014 11:03

Jaxson: I think it's really important to remind people that religions, (Christianity being the major player in this country but not the only religion), do not have the monopoly on values and morals. I find it really insulting to suggest that I'm not a good person because I don't align myself to a particular man made belief/faith system. That's my views on that line of discussion...

And you should have every right to feel insulted.

However Christianity has a well codified and fine-tuned set of values and morals, so is arguably a sensible source to turn to.

Klipspringer

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#1009692 20-Mar-2014 11:14

TinyTim:
Klipspringer:
TinyTim:
Is this similar to the belief that God is a physical being who lives in a physical place called heaven? And can mysteriously manipulate matter against the laws of physics? Does any Christian actually believe that?

I don't think many religions will agree with your statement that God is a physical being... Heaven and hell would not be physical either. IMO its all outside the physical boundaries and limitations of our universe as we know it.

For the avoidance of doubt - I didn't make a statement, I just asked if any Christian believed it. :-)

Well the question is very similar to some of the discussions we had here on geekzone a few weeks back ...

Its not really much different to the strong believe that there is possible life elsewhere in the universe. God after all could be an alien, heaven just an undiscovered planet more advance than ours. Or maybe in the future we will be Gods of some sort. Creating life on another planet. People actually believe this stuff too

MikeB4

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#1009715 20-Mar-2014 11:33

Heaven can wait
And a band of angels wrapped up in my heart
Will take me through the lonely night
Through the cold of the day
And I know
I know
Heaven can wait
And all the gods come down here just to sing for me
And the melodies gonna make me fly

jonathan18

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#1009736 20-Mar-2014 11:42

Jaxson: I think it's really important to remind people that religions, (Christianity being the major player in this country but not the only religion), do not have the monopoly on values and morals. I find it really insulting to suggest that I'm not a good person because I don't align myself to a particular man made belief/faith system. That's my views on that line of discussion...

Amen to that! (sorry, couldn't help myself there!)

Apparently this (conflating religion and values) was one of the key argments used at my child's school to justify the need to bring CE back. Of course, there are many other ways schools can (and do) teach "values" and "morals" without needing to go down the religion path..

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Item

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#1009738 20-Mar-2014 11:42

TinyTim:
However Christianity has a well codified and fine-tuned set of values and morals, so is arguably a sensible source to turn to.

Which flavour of Christianity though - the friendly, tolerant, trendy-local-vicar, New Testament stuff or the bigoted, racist, homophobic, misogynistic, smiting Old School kind?

crackrdbycracku

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#1009744 20-Mar-2014 11:52

My apologies if I am re-covering ground but here are my two thoughts.

A worthwhile religious component in schools would include an honest examination of the question: 'Does God exist, or was religion created by people?'.

Or to put it another way; do we teach religion or do we teach about religion?

Secondly; political discussion is the best way to get emotional debate with a side order of indignation, hold the facts please, with one exception...

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testha

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#1009750 20-Mar-2014 12:01

TinyTim:
Jaxson: I think it's really important to remind people that religions, (Christianity being the major player in this country but not the only religion), do not have the monopoly on values and morals. I find it really insulting to suggest that I'm not a good person because I don't align myself to a particular man made belief/faith system. That's my views on that line of discussion...

And you should have every right to feel insulted.

However Christianity has a well codified and fine-tuned set of values and morals, so is arguably a sensible source to turn to.

What kind of values? Intolerance? Ignorance? Supressing sexuality?

Christianity is not the big moral authority it claims to be. People living in a none christian society also developed good morals and values. It is about being human, not just about being part of a certain religion.

TinyTim

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#1009780 20-Mar-2014 12:23

testha:
TinyTim:
Jaxson: I think it's really important to remind people that religions, (Christianity being the major player in this country but not the only religion), do not have the monopoly on values and morals. I find it really insulting to suggest that I'm not a good person because I don't align myself to a particular man made belief/faith system. That's my views on that line of discussion...

And you should have every right to feel insulted.

However Christianity has a well codified and fine-tuned set of values and morals, so is arguably a sensible source to turn to.

What kind of values? Intolerance? Ignorance? Supressing sexuality?

I think you'll find the opposite are codifed - even for the latter (the Bible is relatively raunchy in places). Unless you mean RC dogma re priests.

jonathan18

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#1009786 20-Mar-2014 12:30

crackrdbycracku: My apologies if I am re-covering ground but here are my two thoughts.

A worthwhile religious component in schools would include an honest examination of the question: 'Does God exist, or was religion created by people?'.

Which highlights the question - at what age is such a conversation appropriate?

Particularly with the current Christian Education, I wonder why really young kids are exposed to this? My son had it in is year one class (when he was five). One poster above mentioned at the school he taught at it was only offered at year four and above; such a limitation makes sense, given that younger children are so gullible and malleable in terms of what they're told in the school environment. So often in these early years the teacher(s) replaces the parent(s) as the source of Unquestionable Truth.

crackrdbycracku

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#1009792 20-Mar-2014 12:38

jonathan18:

Which highlights the question - at what age is such a conversation appropriate?

In my opinion if the child is old enough to be taught any religion they are old enough to be taught to question religion.

Yes, there are times when children have to taught in such as way that they do what they are told without question.

But I don't think religion is like crossing the road. For a parent/teacher to say "I don't actually know what happens when we die, I'd like to think ... but the truth is I don't know" is perfectly fine in my opinion.

To put it another way, I don't think a child is ever too young to begin to think for themselves.

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jonathan18

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#1009804 20-Mar-2014 12:53

crackrdbycracku:
jonathan18:

Which highlights the question - at what age is such a conversation appropriate?

In my opinion if the child is old enough to be taught any religion they are old enough to be taught to question religion.

Yes, there are times when children have to taught in such as way that they do what they are told without question.

But I don't think religion is like crossing the road. For a parent/teacher to say "I don't actually know what happens when we die, I'd like to think ... but the truth is I don't know" is perfectly fine in my opinion.

To put it another way, I don't think a child is ever too young to begin to think for themselves.

I agree re teaching children to question from a young age; my situtation is classic, given my children have to come to grips with me being an atheist and my wife a "believer" (lapsed Catholic but still religious)! At this point no doubt my six-year-old's confused by it all, but at least already has an understanding that different people have different beliefs.

My point is, though, that CE (where questioning is not part of the mix!) for children of a young age is even less appropriate than for older kids

Sidestep

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#1009807 20-Mar-2014 12:57

jonathan18:
crackrdbycracku: My apologies if I am re-covering ground but here are my two thoughts.

A worthwhile religious component in schools would include an honest examination of the question: 'Does God exist, or was religion created by people?'.

Which highlights the question - at what age is such a conversation appropriate?

Particularly with the current Christian Education, I wonder why really young kids are exposed to this? My son had it in is year one class (when he was five). One poster above mentioned at the school he taught at it was only offered at year four and above; such a limitation makes sense, given that younger children are so gullible and malleable in terms of what they're told in the school environment. So often in these early years the teacher(s) replaces the parent(s) as the source of Unquestionable Truth.

Teaching Ethics, such as "values" and "morals" unless done cleverly, is going to leave a lot of primary school kids glassy eyed and fidgeting.
Especially the kids who, through parent inattention, and bad luck, barely have a grasp of right and wrong.
Telling them the Spirit in the Sky doesn't want them to do bad things is easier.

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