Smash and grabs at MHJ

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#3080082 27-May-2023 16:14

elpenguino:

It saddens me that people in this thread would happily spend $100k per year to lock someone up but they begrudge spending half of that to help people before they end up in that situation.

It saddens me more that people who are the victims of horrendous crimes in our country receive less support than the criminals themselves. We never talk about the victims, and it always becomes about the perpetrator. I'm not happy to see $100k spent per year on locking somebody up if they deserve it either, but it's better than giving them more rights than the rights they CHOSE to take away from their victims. Personally, I would be more than happy to abolish prisons for rapists and murderers, but some people will not like the alternative punishment I am thinking about, and I will not be going into that here either.

elpenguino

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#3080085 27-May-2023 16:18

Wombat1:

elpenguino:

It saddens me that people in this thread would happily spend $100k per year to lock someone up but they begrudge spending half of that to help people before they end up in that situation.

It saddens me more that people who are the victims of horrendous crimes in our country receive less support than the criminals themselves. We never talk about the victims, and it always becomes about the perpetrator. I'm not happy to see $100k spent per year on locking somebody up if they deserve it either, but it's better than giving them more rights than the rights they CHOSE to take away from their victims. Personally, I would be more than happy to abolish prisons for rapists and murderers, but some people will not like the alternative punishment I am thinking about, and I will not be going into that here either.

It's good to mention victims and also to remember the offender is a person too. Imagine if we improved their communities so much we avoided all the misery their crimes bring?

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

Wombat1

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#3080088 27-May-2023 16:24

elpenguino:

It's good to mention victims and also to remember the offender is a person too. Imagine if we improved their communities so much we avoided all the misery their crimes bring?

But its a myth that its just bad communities that create criminals.. Some people are just wired that way. A rapist or murderer is not a person in my view and they have forfeited all their rights when they take the basic human rights away from somebody else, and their families.

Rikkitic

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#3080092 27-May-2023 16:52

There are places (think USA) that are big on payback and freely execute and otherwise excessively punish murderers and rapists and the like. At least they have in the recent past. Yet surprise surprise, they still have murderers and rapists. There is no evidence that severe punishment, including lengthy prison sentences, deters this kind of crime.

A big mistake the lock ‘em up brigade always makes with this kind of thing is thinking that violent criminals think the way they do. Punishment only deters white collar crime and the kinds of criminals who connect action with consequence and even then not always. Violent criminals (and I include ram raiders and the like in the ‘violent’ category, rarely think things through. They have little to no impulse control and very limited brain power. They lash out without thinking. You could make hanging the penalty for ram raiding and it still wouldn’t stop most of them. Their brains just don’t work that way.

Punishment satisfies the itch for revenge and wins votes, but it doesn’t fix anything. To really change this kind of behaviour takes a lot of early intervention and money over a long period of time, and voters just aren’t prepared to pay for it. As long as people ignore the true mechanisms of crime, it will continue.

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networkn

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#3080125 27-May-2023 19:39

elpenguino:

Ah , the myth that everyone has choices. Behind that idea is the conceit that ' I would never do things like that if I grew up in those circumstances around those people'. It's easy to take that view when you didn't grow up in the same way.

You might be surprised what bad things you (and all of us) are capable of when you're pushed and pushed.

However I'm not going to argue that humans are deterministic creatures either.

It saddens me that people in this thread would happily spend $100k per year to lock someone up but they begrudge spending half of that to help people before they end up in that situation.

Almost everyone has some choices they can make. That is not a myth. You know nothing about me, clearly, but I can assure you, I have first-hand experience of living in a household that would have fitted well inside the 10% 'poverty' line in NZ. I have a complete understanding of what I am talking about.

Are you claiming the ram raids, dairy robberies, bottle shop hold-ups, and all the other daily occurrences that have been happening the past 2 years, are people just trying to feed their starving families? I would bet a large sum of money a tiny fraction, if any at all (and I believe it would be zero), would be people stealing to keep themselves alive. This crime epidemic isn't to do with that.

I think you are drawing conclusions to suit your own internal narrative. I have repeatedly advocated for both a solution to the problem at source, but also the fact that there needs to be serious consequences for those who commit crimes. These aren't crimes of necessity, it feels more like a protest and a 'because we can' type crime wave at least partially. People were promised lots of things that haven't been delivered, that doesn't help either. Many people are angry, fed up, and disillusioned, and it's not just the poor. Kiwis have had a LOT to contend with, as if Covid and the response wasn't enough on it's own (which is irrelevant to whether you feel the response was or wasn't valid). We have had massacres, and seemingly never-ending natural disasters. There is rarely any good news. It adds up. Even the most resilient are battling away. I'd suggest the number of people as a percentage who live in NZ and feel safe, secure, happy and have a strong sense of well-being, and a positive outlook for the short to medium future, would be very very small.

SJB

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#3080267 28-May-2023 10:24

Let me see. Shall I steal a car, ram raid a Michael Hill and outrun a police car or dig up a road for Fulton Hogan 5 days a week for the next 40 years.

Most of the people you are talking about here will have few opportunities in life even if you poured billions into improving their communities. They would simply have a better class of shop to steal from.

k1w1k1d

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#3080275 28-May-2023 11:05

So, what is the answer?

Better education - so that they can get a career with prospects, rather than just a manual labour type job going nowhere at minimum wage?

Better health care, stable family with both parents, improved parenting skills, improved housing, better discipline to know right from wrong, ?????????

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gzt

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#3080277 28-May-2023 11:09

Nothing wrong with that kind of work except maybe other people's attitudes. It's not all minimum/starting wage.

SJB

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#3080286 28-May-2023 11:48

k1w1k1d:

So, what is the answer?

Better education - so that they can get a career with prospects, rather than just a manual labour type job going nowhere at minimum wage?

Better health care, stable family with both parents, improved parenting skills, improved housing, better discipline to know right from wrong, ?????????

The majority of working people don't have a career. They have a job which provides a necessary income, that's all. The only prospect being a wage increase now and then.

When you are young outcomes are often determined by the other people that you consider friends. If they smoke, so do you, if they drink so do you, if they steal so do you. Nothing to do with peer pressure really, you just emulate the people you like or admire. At least that was what it was like when I was young.

surfisup1000

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#3080332 28-May-2023 14:18

Someone asked for just one case where today's prison sentences are ridiculously low. It was easy (multiple rapist sentenced to home detention).

Here is another one today...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/132148540/familys-fury-at-pathetic-justice-system-after-killer-drinkdriver-has-sentence-cut

Lewis, who had already been convicted 10 times for drink-driving, was more than three times the legal limit when his car weaved across a West Coast road on April 30 last year and ploughed into one driven by Kathy Sexton.

Sexton was killed

Two years and 9 months prison time. I have little doubt he will be drink driving again in future. If a 15 year sentence was given for the previous drink driving conviction then this mother of two would still be alive today.

Punishment is the answer for repeat offenders! 43 driving convictions. How does one have enough years in a normal lifetime to get so many convictions? A repeat drink driver will eventually kill someone.

Wombat1

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#3080416 28-May-2023 18:32

Something is seriously wrong with our justice system.

Shocking.

cokemaster

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#3080420 28-May-2023 18:47

I'm going to catch a lot of hate for saying this: there are people who unfortunately are so unsafe for society that lengthy or natural life sentences are the only option.
Society may have failed those by not offering comprehensive rehabilitation services... but this doesn't take away the fact that they represent a material threat to society.

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Wombat1

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#3080421 28-May-2023 19:08

The real criminals in the above case are those we put in charge. Personally, I have more hate for some of our lawmakers and judges nowadays than some of our worst offenders. its because of our lawmakers and justice system we see things like this happening, criminals will always be criminals. It's our lawmakers that need to be held accountable for keeping us safe.

networkn

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#3080471 28-May-2023 19:54

cokemaster:
I'm going to catch a lot of hate for saying this: there are people who unfortunately are so unsafe for society that lengthy or natural life sentences are the only option.
Society may have failed those by not offering comprehensive rehabilitation services... but this doesn't take away the fact that they represent a material threat society.

I agree with you.
Obama made a big deal out of saying he would close Gitmo, became President, reviewed the real information and then came out and stated it wouldn't be safe to do so. Some people are just evil and or unable to help themselves.

SepticSceptic

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#3080499 28-May-2023 22:23

cokemaster:
I'm going to catch a lot of hate for saying this: there are people who unfortunately are so unsafe for society that lengthy or natural life sentences are the only option.
Society may have failed those by not offering comprehensive rehabilitation services... but this doesn't take away the fact that they represent a material threat to society.

I dunno about hate, whilst there are a few out there that maybe genuinely bad, what about those afflicted with FAS, or had a life threatening head injury that has affected their cognitive ability? Meth or heroin addicted mum?

Such a quandary. They can be a danger to themselves or to society, but is it really right to deprive them of liberty for actions they have no true understanding of?

No amount of wrap around services will ever make any difference to some people. Following this to its conclusion, will they eventually need 24 hour wrap around service for the rest of their lives?
Might as well be a low security prison...

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