Auckland city not cabinetised, lack of of ports, 3rd world.

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3892 posts

Uber Geek

#1319355 8-Jun-2015 13:09

The other thing to do is just look for a neighbour with fibre and build a short wireless link to them.

Couple of these...

http://www.gowifi.co.nz/backhaul-point-to-point/ubiquiti-nanostation-locom5-802.11n/a-200mw-dual-polarity-ap/bri.html?keyword=loco+m5

and a couple of these...

http://www.gowifi.co.nz/coming-soon-new-products/mikrotik-hap-lite-802.11n-rout.html?keyword=ap+lite

and a copy of this...

http://www.gowifi.co.nz/mikrotik-routerboard/routeros-by-example-book.html

= problem gone.

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richms

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#1319357 8-Jun-2015 13:11

eXDee:
It would be nice for the end user if this was the case, but if they did then people would shout about the government stepping on peoples toes and getting all up in their property blah blah etc. If the landlords/bodycorp didn't like it, im sure the govt wouldn't be too pleased about losing favour with them.
Theres probably other aspects of it too, but yes as an end user i also wish there were less hoops to jump through.

I think chorus should just stop new copper installs in fiber areas.

"Sorry, you cant order that copper product, you are in a UFB area" would hopefully get these useless body corps and busybody objectors out of the way when they find they cant get a phone connected now.

Richard rich.ms

DonGould

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#1319363 8-Jun-2015 13:18

richms: I think chorus should just stop new copper installs in fiber areas.

That seems like a political issue that really people need to present to the MP.

What's currently more profitable for Chorus?

Every new ONT install is a capital investment, every copper 'resupply' is just continuation of revenue from existing investment.

Seems like it would take some political push to bring change.

But is it even piratical? Is there currently enough resource to keep up with the fibre install demand?

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richms

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#1319366 8-Jun-2015 13:25

Huge cost on every copper install that doesn't work properly because the copper is beyond end of life and was in most cases only installed with the intention of providing 2 meg primary rate ISDN service on them at fastest.

Fiber installs they are paid a crapload from the govt to do, they get a term commitment from the ordering service provider and once its in there, any subsiquent installations are a piece of cake since the network is new and working properly, rather than being corroded, held together with bits of tape and bodged up 70's era junctions etc.

Richard rich.ms

Jaxar

383 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1319370 8-Jun-2015 13:32

eXDee:
TeaLeaf:
eXDee: how fibre isn't classified as a utility like phone lines are under the RMA.

there is lies the problem with spending so much on UFB that people in built up areas cant access. it should be mandatory to replace the copper technology where its been layed, like having power or a telephone line. imo..

It would be nice for the end user if this was the case, but if they did then people would shout about the government stepping on peoples toes and getting all up in their property blah blah etc. If the landlords/bodycorp didn't like it, im sure the govt wouldn't be too pleased about losing favour with them.
Theres probably other aspects of it too, but yes as an end user i also wish there were less hoops to jump through.

It would not be nice for the end user. It would be chaos.
Don't get me wrong fibre is great but it is not a solution for everybody. Thousands of PBX's for businesses would suddenly become obsolete. Thousands of monitored alarms both medical and security which are analogue only would become obsolete. Thousands of fax machines would no longer work. While there are solutions to each one of those problems imagine them hitting all at the rate that fibre is being introduced. Thousands of out of date analog only eftpos machines would no longer. All those houses and business that do not need internet but just a single POTS line would suddenly need to organise VOIP services.

I regularly speak to people who are dealing with complaints from customers that have moved into a fibre only area and are upset because they cannot get their copper line. People are paying thousands of dollars out of their own pocket to get copper to their building instead of fibre.

This idea would be wonderfully convenient for you, me and a bunch of other people if it existed in isolation from reality.

Please note: I have a professional bias towards Vodafone.

DonGould

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Uber Geek

#1319371 8-Jun-2015 13:35

richms: Huge cost on every copper install that doesn't work properly because the copper is beyond end of life and was in most cases only installed with the intention of providing 2 meg primary rate ISDN service on them at fastest.

... rather than being corroded, held together with bits of tape and bodged up 70's era junctions etc.

Aspects of this are just wrong.

In some places the copper is not 1970's. Some copper is very new and in very acceptable condition.

We really shouldn't make blanket statements just to justify our desire to have people make the move to fibre, especially when they're just factually wrong.

In my view, a greater issue is that we've only got limited human resources and we really need all the people focused on fibre not supporting the old technology, that we've already committed to migrating away from, not running around making factually incorrect generalizations.

D

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Behodar

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#1319374 8-Jun-2015 13:43

richms: I think chorus should just stop new copper installs in fiber areas.

"Sorry, you cant order that copper product, you are in a UFB area" would hopefully get these useless body corps and busybody objectors out of the way when they find they cant get a phone connected now.

That would also have the side benefit of pushing more ISPs into offering fibre services in more places. Take a look at Chorus' ISP map and compare the difference between, say, Auckland and Greymouth.

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eXDee

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#1319376 8-Jun-2015 13:44

Jaxar:
eXDee:
TeaLeaf:
eXDee: how fibre isn't classified as a utility like phone lines are under the RMA.

there is lies the problem with spending so much on UFB that people in built up areas cant access. it should be mandatory to replace the copper technology where its been layed, like having power or a telephone line. imo..

It would be nice for the end user if this was the case, but if they did then people would shout about the government stepping on peoples toes and getting all up in their property blah blah etc. If the landlords/bodycorp didn't like it, im sure the govt wouldn't be too pleased about losing favour with them.
Theres probably other aspects of it too, but yes as an end user i also wish there were less hoops to jump through.

It would not be nice for the end user. It would be chaos.
Don't get me wrong fibre is great but it is not a solution for everybody. Thousands of PBX's for businesses would suddenly become obsolete. Thousands of monitored alarms both medical and security which are analogue only would become obsolete. Thousands of fax machines would no longer work. While there are solutions to each one of those problems imagine them hitting all at the rate that fibre is being introduced. Thousands of out of date analog only eftpos machines would no longer. All those houses and business that do not need internet but just a single POTS line would suddenly need to organise VOIP services.

I regularly speak to people who are dealing with complaints from customers that have moved into a fibre only area and are upset because they cannot get their copper line. People are paying thousands of dollars out of their own pocket to get copper to their building instead of fibre.

This idea would be wonderfully convenient for you, me and a bunch of other people if it existed in isolation from reality.

Oh my intention was an overall 'it would be nice if it was treated like copper/easier to get installed' (regarding RMA status etc), not explicitly the idea of mandatory replacement. That would indeed be hectic.
Should have quoted better/clarified.

richms

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#1319377 8-Jun-2015 13:44

DonGould:
richms: Huge cost on every copper install that doesn't work properly because the copper is beyond end of life and was in most cases only installed with the intention of providing 2 meg primary rate ISDN service on them at fastest.

... rather than being corroded, held together with bits of tape and bodged up 70's era junctions etc.

Aspects of this are just wrong.

In some places the copper is not 1970's. Some copper is very new and in very acceptable condition.

We really shouldn't make blanket statements just to justify our desire to have people make the move to fibre, especially when they're just factually wrong.

In my view, a greater issue is that we've only got limited human resources and we really need all the people focused on fibre not supporting the old technology, that we've already committed to migrating away from, not running around making factually incorrect generalizations.

D

We are talking about Auckland inner suburbs here. I dont know of any that has newer copper than early 80's at best other than when new runs were made to new developments. The places are littered with old wooden poles with cables so old they look like rope running up them to old junctions that look more like plumbing fittings.

Sure, they may replace the run up the pole and cables to the houses with new looking stuff when the poles are replaced, but in the ground its joining on to the relicy old stuff that is not easy to replace because it's direclty buried in the ground.

Richard rich.ms

TeaLeaf

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#1319392 8-Jun-2015 13:57

i was thinking of the fibre as an extra service not a replacement to the exsiting copper which still can be used for isdn or alarms etc.

it would be nice to think the analysts did consider this problem prior to spending the money and rally body corps.

im sure over time it will become a must have, especially for high end rentals.

richms

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#1319397 8-Jun-2015 14:03

I should probably have menatioend that I meant copper based internet services, not copper PSTN/whatever.

Get all the noisy dialup lines you like, but drop the xDSL products. Once people are weened off the copper PSTN then can start to look at axing those products.

Richard rich.ms

DonGould

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#1319398 8-Jun-2015 14:08

TeaLeaf: i was thinking of the fibre as an extra service not a replacement to the exsiting copper which still can be used for isdn or alarms etc.

We really need to be thinking in terms of just replacement.

You're talking about continuing support of water troffs for horses.

ISDN should be gone and alarms just need a simple IP box if you don't want to just upgrade the controller to an IP or mobile network enabled one.

As others have said here, the old suburban copper is failing. It costs lots of money for every truck roll to fix it when it faults. So we really need to just get our attitude in the right direction and get with the program.

Yes it's going to cost a lot of people a few dollars. That's just the price of progress.

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richms

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#1319404 8-Jun-2015 14:14

As there are less horses drinking from the troffs, then it makes sense to charge them more. $80-90 for a basic analog phoneline to support your 30 year old alarm system starts to make replacing it look more viable. As there are less, make it $110. Suddenly the new eftpos machine that does IP starts to make sense.

There will come a time when they have to stop even allowing dialup connections to the copper network to be made. What sense is there in pushing that out forever just because of a few holdouts - it will become like the analog TV switch off with NZ being one of the last in the world to do it just because there are a small minority that wont upgrade. As for TV there was no way to give them a financial incentive to move over, but with dialup lines, there is.

Richard rich.ms

DonGould

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#1319409 8-Jun-2015 14:21

richms: As there are less horses drinking from the troffs, then it makes sense to charge them more. $80-90 for a basic analog phoneline to support your 30 year old alarm system starts to make replacing it look more viable. As there are less, make it $110. Suddenly the new eftpos machine that does IP starts to make sense.

There will come a time when they have to stop even allowing dialup connections to the copper network to be made. What sense is there in pushing that out forever just because of a few holdouts - it will become like the analog TV switch off with NZ being one of the last in the world to do it just because there are a small minority that wont upgrade. As for TV there was no way to give them a financial incentive to move over, but with dialup lines, there is.

If you're only needing an alarm system then you're smarter to figure out a mobile solution away. it's cheaper than a copper phone line now.

All current EFTPOS systems will do IP as far as I'm aware. They just need to be reprogrammed. The new chip cards required upgrades be completed last year if I recall correctly.

Dialup connections use so little data that a 3G stick is now cheaper and more viable for those people too. 500gb for $20 a month or less.

Really these are just lame excuses that we're all getting thrown at us time and time again that we just have to bat away.

Chorus have been very VERY clear that they don't want to drop the cost of copper because it's just costing to much to maintain and have them still make a reasonable profit. It's time we stopped arguing with them and just got on with our job of getting the country upgraded and off the failing copper.

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SaltyNZ

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#1319587 8-Jun-2015 17:27

DonGould: It's time we stopped arguing with them and just got on with our job of getting the country upgraded and off the failing copper.

I'll bite: I argue for split pricing on wholesale copper. Let Chorus raise the cost in areas with active UFB service. That way, they can cover their rising costs and give subscribers incentive to move to fibre. Wherever they have not completed or do not intend to roll out UFB, reduce it, as the ComCom originally wanted. That way, those who can't have UFB don't get punished, and Chorus has an incentive to complete and expand the fibre rollout so as to get that copper service charge high again.

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