VDSL2 training period

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MichaelNZ

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#116148 19-Apr-2013 13:58

I have previously had VDSL2. When it was first connected I got about 22ms ping time for several days - a couple of weeks and then it suddenly went down to sub 10ms and stayed there.

I have now gotten a new VDSL connection at a different address and I am still at 27ms 3 weeks later.

In both cases the router is the same and the line quality appears to be similar (speed tests are very similar).

Could someone please explain for my interest what the VDSL2 training process is and what period to expect? Also, any comments on the above issue.

I don't know if this is of relevance but I have been turning the router off at night here due to it's proximity to where I sleep (It has a fan).

Thanks,

Michael Hallager

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#802289 19-Apr-2013 13:58

Hello... Our robot found some keywords in your post, so here is an automated reply with some important things to note regarding broadband speeds.

If you are posting regarding DSL speeds please check that

- you have reset your modem and router

- your PC (or other PCs in your LAN) is not downloading large files when you are testing

- you are not being throttled by your ISP due to going over the monthly cap

- your tests are always done on an ethernet connection to the router - do not use wireless for testing

- you read this topic and follow the instructions there.

Make sure you provide information for other users to help you. If you have not already done it, please EDIT your post and add this now:

- Your ISP and plan

- Type of connection (ADSL, ADSL2, VDSL)

- Your modem DSL stats (do not worry about posting Speedtest, we need sync rate, attenuation and noise margin)

- Your general location (or street)

- If you are rural or urban

- If you know your connection is to an exchange, cabinet or conklin

- If your connection is to a ULL or wholesale service

- If you have done an isolation test as per the link above

Most of the problems with speed are likely to be related to internal wiring issues. Read this discussion to find out more about this. Your ISP is not intentionally slowing you down today (unless you are on a managed plan). Also if this is the school holidays it's likely you will notice slower than usual speed due to more users online.

A master splitter is required for VDSL2 and in most cases will improve speeds on DSL connections. Regular disconnections can be a monitored alarm or a set top box trying to connect. If there's an alarm connected to your line even if you don't have an alarm contract it may still try to connect so it's worth checking.

I recommend you read these two blog posts:

- Is your premises phone wiring impacting your broadband performance? (very technical)

- Are you receiving a substandard ULL ADSL2+ connection from your ISP?

I am the Geekzone Robot and I am here to help. I am from the Internet. I do not interact. Do not expect other replies from me.

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johnr

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#802300 19-Apr-2013 14:05

Where is the ping test to?

MichaelNZ

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#802303 19-Apr-2013 14:08

johnr: Where is the ping test to?

Host at Internet Service Provider.

Case #1 and case #2 were different ISP's but the test was the same - ICMP from my desktop to a host on their network.

Here is a segment of "show controllers VDSL 0". I can post the entire status page on request.

Modem Status:            TC Sync (Showtime!)
DSL Config Mode:         AUTO
Trained Mode:            G.993.2 (VDSL2) Profile 8b
TC Mode:                 PTM
Selftest Result:         0x00
DELT configuration:      disabled
DELT state:              not running
Trellis:                 ON                       ON
SRA:                     disabled                        disabled
SRA count:              0                       0
Bit swap:                enabled                         enabled
Bit swap count:         3                       0
Line Attenuation:         0.0 dB                  0.0 dB
Signal Attenuation:       0.0 dB                  0.0 dB
Noise Margin:            12.3 dB                 15.2 dB
Attainable Rate:        44676 kbits/s            12360 kbits/s
Actual Power:            13.5 dBm                - 3.6 dBm
Per Band Status:        D1      D2      D3      U0      U1      U2      U3
Line Attenuation(dB):   14.2    27.0    N/A     N/A     23.6    N/A     N/A
Signal Attenuation(dB): 14.2    27.0    N/A     N/A     22.8    N/A     N/A
Noise Margin(dB):       12.3    12.3    N/A     N/A     15.2    N/A     N/A
Total FECC:             7968                     0
Total ES:               10                       1
Total SES:              0                        0
Total LOSS:             0                        0
Total UAS:              0                        0
Total LPRS:             0                        0
Total LOFS:             0                        0
Total LOLS:             0                        0

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sbiddle

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#802307 19-Apr-2013 14:13

DLM takes care of this.

Read the 70+ page thread on VDSL2 if you want to understand how things work.

http://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=90&topicid=105744

MichaelNZ

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#802312 19-Apr-2013 14:22

sbiddle: DLM takes care of this.

Read the 70+ page thread on VDSL2 if you want to understand how things work.

http://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=90&topicid=105744

Thanks for that. It is very interesting.

I am assuming, based on the below, my connection is on profile DLM4. It would appear that my speculation (about switching off the router when I am sleeping) may have an effect as the connect speed / line stability I have experienced should support a sub 10ms latency.

                  DS Channel1     DS Channel0   US Channel1       US Channel0
Speed (kbps):             0            43451             0             10341
SRA Previous Speed:       0                0             0                 0
Previous Speed:           0                0             0                 0
Reed-Solomon EC:          0             7968             0                 0
CRC Errors:               0               22             0                 0
Header Errors:            0               28             0                 0
Interleave (ms):       0.00             8.00          0.00              8.00
Actual INP:            0.00             1.00          0.00              1.00

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sbiddle

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#802314 19-Apr-2013 14:23

Turning it off is probably a major part of your issue.

MichaelNZ

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#802986 21-Apr-2013 10:43

sbiddle: Turning it off is probably a major part of your issue.

I'm now running the router 24/7. As it is past the initial 10 day training period, does anyone know how long it will take to fix this issue and get sub 10ms latencies?

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coffeebaron

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#803066 21-Apr-2013 14:52

Assume you have a master filter installed too?

Rural IT and Broadband support.

Broadband troubleshooting and master filter installs.
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MichaelNZ

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#803075 21-Apr-2013 15:16

coffeebaron: Assume you have a master filter installed too?

To answer your attempt at self marketing:

The connection is naked VDSL. I am using CAT5 wiring from the demarch to the (only) jackpoint - which is RJ12. Everything is up to scratch at my end.

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sbiddle

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#803083 21-Apr-2013 15:35

MichaelNZ:
coffeebaron: Assume you have a master filter installed too?

To answer your attempt at self marketing:
.

I don't see it that way. You never mentioned in any prior posts that you only had a single jack. Many people who are signing up for VDSL2 are obvious to the requirements for a master filter or wiring and are receiving sub standard performance as a result.

A naked xDSL connection doesn't remove the need for a master filter unless you're running naked xDSL into a single jack in the premises.

coffeebaron

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#803135 21-Apr-2013 16:54

MichaelNZ:
coffeebaron: Assume you have a master filter installed too?

To answer your attempt at self marketing:

The connection is naked VDSL. I am using CAT5 wiring from the demarch to the (only) jackpoint - which is RJ12. Everything is up to scratch at my end.

All good; and I only "self market" to beat johnr, sbiddle and plambrechtsen to asking have you got a master filter installed first :)

But that a side, I've lost count of how many "it's naked-dsl, so I know it's not my wiring" that I have fixed; so question does need to be asked.

Good to hear you do have a single dedicated feed for your VDSL. As sbiddle advised, switching off your VDSL connection is not helpful, as it can see that as potential connection issues, thus keeping you on a "lower grade" profile.

Rural IT and Broadband support.

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MichaelNZ

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#803138 21-Apr-2013 17:02

But that a side, I've lost count of how many "it's naked-dsl, so I know it's not my wiring" that I have fixed; so question does need to be asked.

Good to hear you do have a single dedicated feed for your VDSL. As sbiddle advised, switching off your VDSL connection is not helpful, as it can see that as potential connection issues, thus keeping you on a "lower grade" profile.

Thanks. I do agree with your point about filters + wiring though.

I didn't mention this at the start as I thought it would be inferred by the details in my post that I am an experienced user... actually formally a Sys Admin for an ISP before I decided to change my career.

This is an older commercial building. When I first moved into this office it had master/extension sockets, old 2 pair internal wiring and jumper boxes with corroded connections. I ripped it all out and rewired back to the 30 pair demarc box. At first I put in a (modern) BT walljack, then on a whim decided to change it to the RJ12 I had lying around and immediately got a 1mbps speed boost from mid-15 to mid-16 Mbps. That was when I had ADSL. I got ADSL connected and then transferred to VDSL as this is significantly cheaper then a VDSL install.

Do you have any idea how long it will take to get a better profile or will I have to press them to get a line reset? I am looking at 8b with sub-10ms to ISP as my target (like I had before at a previous address)

Speed Test

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Talkiet

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#803165 21-Apr-2013 17:31

MichaelNZ:
sbiddle: Turning it off is probably a major part of your issue.

I'm now running the router 24/7. As it is past the initial 10 day training period, does anyone know how long it will take to fix this issue and get sub 10ms latencies?

I know of someone where during the initial 10 day training period it jumped in and out of interleaving, and after the 10 days it settled on interleaving on... Then, about 4 weeks later it switched to interleaving off...

Latency went from about 18ms to the local Akamai cache down to 4ms.

After the initial 10 days, it is MUCH slower to make changes to the profile. This is by design and seems to work well - except for those people who believe they know better and want to have interleaving turned off manually.

Cheers - N

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

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#803186 21-Apr-2013 18:12

At the first place I got VDSL it only took a day or so. At the 2nd place I don't think it ever made it down to the lowest latency profile, even after months, but the house wiring was shocking.

Took my current, which is my 3rd VDSL connection some weeks to get down to the lowest latency profile and its held.

MichaelNZ

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#816237 12-May-2013 15:36

It has now been about 3 weeks since this discussion, I have left the router on 24/7 and latency is still at 26-27ms to ISP. How much longer should I wait before raising a complaint?

Output of "show controllers vdsL 0"

Controller VDSL 0 is UP

Daemon Status: Up

XTU-R (DS) XTU-C (US)
Chip Vendor ID: 'BDCM' 'IKNS'
Chip Vendor Specific: 0x0000 0x0001
Chip Vendor Country: 0xB500 0xB500
Modem Vendor ID: 'CSCO' ' '
Modem Vendor Specific: 0x4602 0x0000
Modem Vendor Country: 0xB500 0x0000
Serial Number Near: xxxxxx 887VA-K 15.3(2)
Serial Number Far: ^A
Modem Version Near: 15.3(2)
Modem Version Far: 0x0001

Modem Status: TC Sync (Showtime!)
DSL Config Mode: AUTO
Trained Mode: G.993.2 (VDSL2) Profile 8b
TC Mode: PTM
Selftest Result: 0x00
DELT configuration: disabled
DELT state: not running
Trellis: ON ON
SRA: disabled disabled
SRA count: 0 0
Bit swap: enabled enabled
Bit swap count: 0 0
Line Attenuation: 0.0 dB 0.0 dB
Signal Attenuation: 0.0 dB 0.0 dB
Noise Margin: 12.4 dB 15.5 dB
Attainable Rate: 46476 kbits/s 12568 kbits/s
Actual Power: 13.5 dBm - 3.6 dBm
Per Band Status: D1 D2 D3 U0 U1 U2 U3
Line Attenuation(dB): 14.2 27.0 N/A N/A 23.6 N/A N/A
Signal Attenuation(dB): 14.2 27.0 N/A N/A 22.8 N/A N/A
Noise Margin(dB): 12.4 12.4 N/A N/A 15.5 N/A N/A
Total FECC: 432158 198
Total ES: 422 0
Total SES: 0 0
Total LOSS: 0 0
Total UAS: 29 29
Total LPRS: 0 0
Total LOFS: 0 0
Total LOLS: 0 0

Full inits: 1
Failed full inits: 0
Short inits: 0
Failed short inits: 0

Firmware Source File Name (version)
-------- ------ -------------------
VDSL embedded VDSL_LINUX_DEV_01212008 (1)

Modem FW Version: 120306_1254-4.02L.03.A2pv6C035j.d23j
Modem PHY Version: A2pv6C035j.d23j
Vendor Version: Ap6v35j.23j 68

DS Channel1 DS Channel0 US Channel1 US Channel0
Speed (kbps): 0 45002 0 10341
SRA Previous Speed: 0 0 0 0
Previous Speed: 0 0 0 0
Reed-Solomon EC: 0 432158 0 198
CRC Errors: 0 1686 0 0
Header Errors: 0 12161 0 0
Interleave (ms): 0.00 8.00 0.00 8.00
Actual INP: 0.00 1.00 0.00 1.00

Training Log : Stopped
Training Log Filename : flash:vdsllog.bin

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