Advice sought on switch for new home build (specifically, for Unifi APs)

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jonathan18

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#304567 15-May-2023 15:25

My sister and her partner are in the last stages of a house build, and are now looking at APs etc.

Going by what I’ve read, I’ve suggested U6-Lites would be suitable (they’ll start with two, and add additional units if necessary), but I’m wanting to ensure they get a switch that works with these (I understand they’re 48v, and I’ve read of people having problems using some PoE+ switches).

Can I please have some recommendations for a compatible switch?

In terms of PoE+ needs, they’re looking at up to eight devices - perhaps three or even four APs (as a worst-case scenario - it’s a multi-level house) and up to four security cameras.

In total, I imagine they’ve got around 20 Ethernet runs coming in to the garage (for safety’s sake, let’s say 24 ports), but I’m not sure how much it matters how these are managed - are they best to go for one grunty bugger, or mutiple smaller switches (especially if the Unifis have specific requirements)? What I do know is it needs to be fairly straight-forward to install (they won’t be using a pro, so it may well be up to me to help them!) and even simpler to maintain, so I’m hoping to avoid managed switches.

Thanks for any advice.

Edit: I’ve loved the simplicity of the TP-Link unmanaged five-port PoE+ switch I use - would something like this be suitable? (Noting it looks like overkill in terms of PoE ports, but it would be simple as to install and use.) https://www.tp-link.com/au/business-networking/unmanaged-switch/tl-sg1218mp/

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#3076420 15-May-2023 15:59

I have a basically identical setup - three story townhouse with three Unifi APs and 23 ethernet runs in total.

I went for one grunty bugger (although on a good sale) and have mixed feelings overall about my decision. It does the job perfectly but feels like extreme overkill, particularly on the PoE front. I'm using about 18W out of a 420W budget. The managed interface is nice but I'm not really doing anything with it. I like having the 10G SFP+ ports available because 1Gb bottlenecks between gear bothers me, but I wouldn't say I'm getting my money's worth there either.

Assuming they have modest needs (lots of PoE cameras or a desire to use VLANs are two things that often necessitate gruntier gear) and aren't worried about saturating uplinks with massive sustained data transfers, I think a simple 24 port gigabit switch + a 8 port PoE switch is probably better value. But then you need to find room for two switches. Where will this (or these) be stored? I went for a wall-mounted 6RU rack instead of the usual recessed network cabinet - I don't think there's any way to have more than 6-8 ethernet runs without a standard size cabinet running into serious space issues.

Four points:

Current Unifi APs use standard 802.3af/at (PoE/PoE+) - the passive 48V stuff was a few generations ago. So any PoE switch will power them fine.

Power budget wise - the APs and cameras will probably draw about 6 watts each so a likely real world max of about 45W. Probably good practice to leave some headroom. A lot of 8 port PoE switches have a total budget of 40-60W so you do need to be a touch careful.

That TP-Link switch looks great but I'd be cautious about having fewer ports than they have wired up in the house. In reality you need a few more. One for router, and one for any other equipment that you might want to store alongside the networking gear (I have an alarm panel, smart cat door hub and HDHomerun all attached too). So my "perfectly sized" 24 port switch was actually too small, and I need to either use ports on my router or a second switch to have everything connected. For me it was important to have every jack in the house actually wired up so I don't need to mentally keep track of which ones aren't live. I would stick with a 24 port switch.

Sticking with Unifi is probably the cleanest solution given the use of multiple Unifi APs - a suitable model would be something like this. Having everything in the Unifi interface makes for easy remote admin access for the knowledgeable sucker in the family too (you). I just don't think they're particularly great value for money. An equivalent TP-Link with 2.5x the PoE budget a is $250 less.

Paul1977

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#3076421 15-May-2023 16:04

As far as I'm aware the U6-Lite can be powered by passive 48v or a 802.3af capable switch, so I'm surprised people are having trouble with them on PoE+ switches. PoE+ is 802.3at, which is backwards compatible with 802.3af, so in theory should be fine.

Need to make sure the total power requirement of all your PoE devices doesn't exceed the switches maximum output of course.

jonathan18

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#3076425 15-May-2023 16:34

Thanks for those replies - really helpful info that’s already clarifying my thoughts…

They similarly are going with a wall-mounted cabinet, likely one of these https://cdlnz.com/content/images/PDF/rsfdslxx.pdf - not sure what size; what would people recommend? It’ll be taking the router, switches, possibly ONT (going by what I saw on-site yesterday - is this common now?), a two-bay NAS and that’s about it.

Good to know the U6-Lites should just run off a standard PoE switch - that sets my mind at ease! I’m thinking the idea of a standard 24-port switch plus one specifically for the PoE devices makes sense (I was always thinking along the same lines of ensuring all cables were connected to a switch but just adding an additional one to make up to as many ports as they need, but agree there’s no point having that many PoE-enabled ports when they’ll never need them). I note your point re being careful about ensuring that it’s not over-loaded (so, if they end up needing additional APs and/or cameras, could look to add another small PoE switch).
Would a rack-mounted 24-port switch with the smaller PoE switch on shelf be ok, or are they best to get a rack-mounted one for that as well?

allio

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#3076426 15-May-2023 16:40

jonathan18: Thanks for those replies - really helpful info that’s already clarifying my thoughts…

They similarly are going with a wall-mounted cabinet, likely one of these https://cdlnz.com/content/images/PDF/rsfdslxx.pdf - not sure what size; what would people recommend? It’ll be taking the router, switches, possibly ONT (going by what I saw on-site yesterday - is this common now?), a two-bay NAS and that’s about it.

Good to know the U6-Lites should just run off a standard PoE switch - that sets my mind at ease! I’m thinking the idea of a standard 24-port switch plus one specifically for the PoE devices makes sense (I was always thinking along the same lines of ensuring all cables were connected to a switch but just adding an additional one to make up to as many ports as they need, but agree there’s no point having that many PoE-enabled ports when they’ll never need them).

Would a rack-mounted 24-port switch with the smaller PoE switch on shelf be ok, or are they best to get a rack-mounted one for that as well?

6RU should be plenty for their needs - depends on the size of the NAS and whether they have plans to expand to something bigger in future. Or add a UPS etc. I went for 6RU and while everything fits well, I do kind of wish I had 9RU to have more room for toys.

Chorus wouldn't install the ONT in my rack - it ended up being next to it. This confused and frustrated the electricians who had expected Chorus to rack mount it. Hopefully your sister has better luck.

Rack-mountable gear generally costs quite a bit more. I think it'd be hard to find two rack-mountable switches for less than the cost of that $550 "do-it-all" TP-Link at the end of my post, which would rather defeat the cost-saving point of having two switches in the first place. The racks come with shelves and a small desktop switch will sit on one of those quite happily. It really depends on how important a clean look is to you - if you regularly browse the r/homelab subreddit then a non-rackmount switch in the rack might offend your sensibilities. I'm including myself in there - I nearly talked myself into getting a $1500 10GB enterprise switch because it would look cleaner than the $120 Aliexpress one that does the exact same job!

Paul1977

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#3076433 15-May-2023 17:03

I went 9RU so there was space to put taller non-rackable equipment in the bottom, like a small tower UPS.

Enable in Christchurch were happy to install the ONT in my cabinet, although they didn't have a lot of choice because that's were the sparkie had run the draw wire to.

froob

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#3076488 15-May-2023 21:53

I have a basic rack-mounted gigabit switch paired with a smaller desktop PoE switch on a rack shelf. That setup works well, but it would be nicer to have it all in one switch...

Depending on how many devices they're likely to have connected at once, they could go with a more basic TP-Link option like the TL-SG1016PE: https://www.tp-link.com/au/business-networking/easy-smart-switch/tl-sg1016pe/

That is a managed switch, but it's in the "easy smart" range, so the management will be quite basic. It does have a fan, if noise is an issue at all.

Guide: Installing Network Cabling in New Zealand Homes

Kraven

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#3076539 15-May-2023 22:08

froob:

Depending on how many devices they're likely to have connected at once, they could go with a more basic TP-Link option like the TL-SG1016PE: https://www.tp-link.com/au/business-networking/easy-smart-switch/tl-sg1016pe/

I can also confirm this works absolutely fine with the U6-Lite, as this is my exact setup.

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michaelmurfy

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#3076548 15-May-2023 23:42

IMHO unless if you had a specific need for Ubiquiti UniFi gear (cameras etc) they're the last company I go with these days. The problem being, stock along with rather buggy software.

Cameras have been horrible to find, access points are equally as horrible at times and anything in between is luck of the draw + you're paying higher prices currently.

Have a look at the Grandstream GWN7660: https://www.gowifi.co.nz/grandstreamnetworks/gwn7660.html

Then switch wise, you can use any PoE switch. As a whole Grandstream are basically a set and forget solution where the access points can act as a local controller or they have a free cloud controller hosted at https://gwn.cloud

Just another recommendation outside of Ubiquiti if you're wanting a solution that both works well and is a little cheaper. With this you can just use the ISP's router with WiFi turned off as it sounds like they're just needing a basic "flat" network.

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jonathan18

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#3076648 16-May-2023 09:23

Thanks for the further advice - all much appreciated!

@michaelmurfy: does your advice re UniFi product extend to also not recommending their APs? I’ve had Grandstream APs myself and, TBH, found them (and the company’s support) fairly flaky, whereas the s/h Arubas I replaced them with have been rock solid. This makes me slightly wary of recommending them to my sister, given they’ll have even less chance of sorting out any problems!

My thoughts were for them to go with a basic unmanaged 24 port switch like https://www.pbtech.co.nz/product/SWHTPL1025/TP-Link-TL-SG1024-24-Port-Gigabit-Unmanaged-Switch (which comes with a rack mount kit) and, initially an unmanaged smaller PoE+ switch (they’re quite likely to delay installing the cameras until later) like this one https://www.pbtech.co.nz/product/SWHTPL10050/TP-Link-TL-SG1005LP-5-Port-Gigabit-Desktop-PoE-Swi?qr=pspy&ref=pricespy - that’s what I have for a couple of security cameras and a couple of Aruba APs and it works perfectly; is it also likely to be ok with the UniFi U6 Lites?

I didn’t come across a mid-sized PoE+ switch with all ports powered, but rather ones like that in the link above (16 with half powered); I guess they could go for one of those and an unpowered 16 port switch?

Any form of active management of a switch does worry me. Their network is going to be really basic, and they will care much more about simplicity and stability, so the more I can help them deliver on this the better…

Noise from a fan on a switch won’t be an issue, as the cabinet’s going to be mounted in the garage; which reminds me - given the small number of devices going in the cabinet (router, switches, NAS at some point, ONT possibly) do they need a fan on the cabinet? (Not sure if it’s better for them to just go with the ‘lite’ cabinet without any shelving or fan, or select one which comes with this stuff.)

allio

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#3076650 16-May-2023 09:31

jonathan18:

Any form of active management of a switch does worry me. Their network is going to be really basic, and they will care much more about simplicity and stability, so the more I can help them deliver on this the better…

A managed switch will for intents and purposes be an unmanaged switch if you never log into its interface. There's no downside to them at all other than cost. They can also be useful for troubleshooting - they have cable diagnostics etc built in. Obviously don't pay more for one but there really is no reason to actively avoid them.

jonathan18:

Noise from a fan on a switch won’t be an issue, as the cabinet’s going to be mounted in the garage; which reminds me - given the small number of devices going in the cabinet (router, switches, NAS at some point, ONT possibly) do they need a fan on the cabinet? (Not sure if it’s better for them to just go with the ‘lite’ cabinet without any shelving or fan, or select one which comes with this stuff.)

Mine (Dynamix) came with fans. They are unbelievably, stupidly loud. I've unplugged them and everything stayed perfectly cool all summer long in the garage. I would probably avoid a passively-cooled large PoE switch in an unventilated cabinet, but those are pretty rare to begin with.

The shelving on the other hand is very useful, and likely something they'll want given the plan involves using a non-rackmount NAS and switch. You can buy them for about $60 though.

Out of quote space now, but the PoE switch you linked will work perfectly with the Unifi APs. It is short on both ports and PoE budget once the cameras are in the equation though, so wouldn't you want to go for a bigger 8 port switch to begin with?

Unifi - I've actively avoided their ecosystem for my actual network but the APs have been faultless for me.

michaelmurfy

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#3076656 16-May-2023 09:53

@jonathan18 Yep, I've found Ubiquiti's Wireless AX products to be pretty rubbish plus you need a separate controller still. The Grandstream AX products like the GWN7660 have been rock solid for me plus they're pretty small units too (I also have the 7664 but don't recommend it for a home due to cost).

Also, I've got 6 SSID's , around 70 clients connected at any given point across 3 access points. Fully recommend them over Ubiquiti mainly due to the controller aspect but also because they are indeed solid access points for the price.

mdf

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#3076677 16-May-2023 10:33

My home network is very much a product of evolution rather than intelligent design, but FWIW:

I have a 24 port patch panel and switch. About half of the ports are actually in use. Decent wifi, no more landlines, and strategic deployment of small switches behind (e.g.) TV cabinets seem to be reducing the need for cables somewhat.
I've have tried full on managed network infrastructure (VLANs etc.) and while there were benefits, I decided it wasn't worth the time and effort. Simple is better, especially if you're not available for full time trouble shooting.
To that end, ceiling mounted WAPs are great, but would recommend something with a cloud controller. I use Cambiums personally and find them overall really good. But even better is the cloud interface which means I can manage the family's Cambiums too when inevitable support requests come in.
Simpler/even less support by you would probably be an ISP supplied mesh solution. I'm not aware of any of these ceiling-mounted so might not fit the plans, but I really really would not underestimate the benefits of not being responsible/blamed for family technology issues (sidebar: My personal high water mark was being accused of causing the garage door remote to stop working after being asked to fix the wifi).
I've got this switch: https://www.netgear.com/support/product/jgs524pe. 12 Ports POE, 12 ports non. More than I need. Does have management capabilities, but (a) I don't use them and (b) they are really simple compared to previous more powerful options. Can be configured to sit on a network cabinet shelf/desktop but (I think) also came with rack mounting wings. However, I cannot for the life of me find the wings so currently sitting on a cabinet shelf. Not silent, but not super noisy either.

CYaBro

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#3076751 16-May-2023 11:24

I like the Unifi products and only had supply issues a couple of times where I had to wait a few weeks for the product to arrive.

I've also never had any software issues and I have run my own controller in the cloud for years plus I have a UDM SE here myself.
Also have a 16 port POE switch, 2x UAP AC Pro's, UAP AC Mesh Pro, 3x UAP AC Mesh, 16 port lite POE Switch.
Wifi covers 95% of our 10 acres.

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jonathan18

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#3076772 16-May-2023 13:12

Yeah, I do get the appeal of a ‘set and forget’ ISP-supplied solution, but they’re already at the point where the sparky has laid Ethernet into (hopefully!) the right places in the roof spaces, and as you say these options tend to be in-room solutions.

Agh, not sure now re Grandstream vs UniFi! I had an earlier Grandstream model (pre WiFi 6) so it looks like (hopefully!) the current model won’t have the same problems. A key advantage of the Grandstreams is I’ve installed/used them before; I get the advantage also of not needing a controller. Lower price helps, especially if they need to add a third or fourth unit (I’m worried about the reception in the garage - I’d assumed it was best to have the router’s wifi switched off, which means it’ll be reliant on the signal from an AP the floor above.)

Noting the comment above re cloud management - @michaelmurfy would you recommend using Grandstream’s cloud set-up (which would enable me to tweak it remotely) or sticking with the conventional set-up/management?

Thanks, @allio, for the link to the 10-port switch; if they went with that, they could possibly get away with a 16 port standard switch (so 26 total, 8 being PoE+) - I’ll need them to count all the cables coming into the garage to make sure they’re covered (plus allowance for devices like the NAS), but it could be safer to still go with a 24 plus the 10 (only $60-70 difference between the 16 and 24).

Noting the electricians still haven’t put in a patch panel, can I also get advice on the best approach - are they best to get them to use one that has the cables punched down,as opposed to having them put plugs on all cables and using two-way joiners? If punched down, is this a suitable product (assuming 24 ports is adequate)? https://www.pbtech.co.nz/product/CHSDNX1058/Dynamix-PP-C6S-24-24-Port-Cat6-Shielded-Patch-Pane

Thanks again!

michaelmurfy

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#3076784 16-May-2023 13:56

@jonathan18 Their cloud management is great and free but I personally have mine locally managed just due to the security aspect (the AP's themselves are on a management VLAN without internet access) but I fully understand my setup is not for everyone so just use their cloud management. The point also I was making with that statement is you've got the choice of both so if they ditch free cloud management you could bring it back to the local controller.

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