After years of reluctance, company announces iPhones will support RCS messaging standard

Forums › Apple iOS and devices › After years of reluctance, company announces iPhones will support RCS messaging standard

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#3162732 23-Nov-2023 10:10

alasta:

I would have thought it would be hosted on the Internet like iMessage.

And that's what's Google's RCS is. But for those who don't want to hand their message data over to Google as well as their email...

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tstone

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#3162747 23-Nov-2023 10:38

SaltyNZ:

matisyahu:

Apologies in advance if this has been already addressed but where does Spark, 2 Degrees and One NZ sit in regards to RCS -

None of us have an RCS service at present. I can't speak directly for Spark or One but I imagine reasons will be much the same as 2degrees: Apple didn't support it, and it will be challenging to get customers to pay for it, so we would be spending on the order of $3M for no payback. That might change now that Apple intend to release support, but there's still the cost problem.

Probably won't see any official info from any carrier at least till after there are more details on the Apple release.

I have RCS working on One with people who have Samsung and Google phones (my assumption based on my experience). Does One have the infrastructure you're talking about? 🤷‍♂️

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#3162768 23-Nov-2023 11:46

tstone:

I have RCS working on One with people who have Samsung and Google phones (my assumption based on my experience). Does One have the infrastructure you're talking about? 🤷‍♂️

Not as far as I know - are you sure you're not using Google's RCS - the one that Android phones constantly beg people to enable?

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tstone

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#3162802 23-Nov-2023 13:21

SaltyNZ:

tstone:

I have RCS working on One with people who have Samsung and Google phones (my assumption based on my experience). Does One have the infrastructure you're talking about? 🤷‍♂️

Not as far as I know - are you sure you're not using Google's RCS - the one that Android phones constantly beg people to enable?

No I'm not sure. I've read this whole thread and didn't realise there's two types of RCS.

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#3162804 23-Nov-2023 13:27

tstone:

No I'm not sure. I've read this whole thread and didn't realise there's two types of RCS.

Google bought an RCS vendor years ago and started running it in the cloud. They never managed to convince any network operators to use it (because what operator wants to put Google in control of their messaging service?) so lately they've been pushing it directly in Android. In addition to which they were lobbying the EU and other places to put pressure on Apple to support it as well - hence this thread.

So - to the best of my knowledge One never went ahead with RCS after a very limited trial of a cut-down version of it (RCSe, Vodafone global branded 'Joyn') which we & Spark participated in. Mostly just staff.

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farcus

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#3163012 23-Nov-2023 18:49

alasta:

I am struggling to understand why RCS requires carrier support. I would have thought it would be hosted on the Internet like iMessage. If it requires telco based infrastructure then it's not much of an improvement on SMS.

Apple hosts imessages and pays for it (or its users do via the cost of their device).
Google grew tired of waiting for RCS to be picked up by carriers (RCS as a standard had been available for a number of years but carriers could still cream sms without having to spend any money) so decided to . . .

acquire Jibe Mobile, the company that powers rich communications service (RCS) for Deutsche Telecom, Sprint and other global wireless operators.

So yes, RCS via Google is essentially the same as imessages hosted by apple - but carriers are able to to provide their own iteration of RCS if they desire.
As I understand it, Vodafone trialled it for a bit but no longer provide it.

ANglEAUT

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#3163026 23-Nov-2023 20:28

SaltyNZ: ... - are you sure you're not using Google's RCS - ...

How would you as a general user actually know what implementation of RCS you are actually using?

[rant]This is starting to sound a lot like like 'ye old days' of protocol & file format wars[/rant]

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#3163050 23-Nov-2023 21:02

ANglEAUT:

SaltyNZ: ... - are you sure you're not using Google's RCS - ...

How would you as a general user actually know what implementation of RCS you are actually using?

[rant]This is starting to sound a lot like like 'ye old days' of protocol & file format wars[/rant]

No, it's much more serious than that, from what I've read here.

If you use SMS, the message goes in plain text from sender to receiver via their cellular telephone service provider (Telco), which is subject to local laws that usually protect users' privacy and prevent the Telco data-mining SMS messages or sharing them with third parties for commercial purposes. They are also inspectable by local law enforcement agencies, usually only with a warrant of some type.
SMS messages are usually 'free' (perhaps up to a certain number per month).

If you use an RCS provider that offers End-to-end encryption (E2EE), then the message goes encrypted from sender to receiver via the RCS provider. Because the traffic is E2EE, it is impossible to data-mine it or share it with third parties for commercial purposes. The messages are also not inspectable by any security & law enforcement agencies even with a warrant. This may be part of why no NZ Telco provides an RCS service, as they would have problems with TISCA
These RCS messages come out of your data allowance, which may depending on your Telco contract be limited, 'unlimited' but throttled above some limit, or actually unlimited.

If you use Google RCS, the message goes in plain text from sender to receiver via Google, which is not subject to local laws but only those of the USA. Nothing prevents Google data-mining Google RCS messages or sharing them with third parties for commercial purposes. They are also inspectable by USA security & law enforcement agencies often without a warrant of any type. They are probably not inspectable by the sender's or the receiver's local security law enforcement agencies, unless the case is important enough to make an approach through US agencies.
Google RCS messages come out of your data allowance.

matisyahu

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#3163072 24-Nov-2023 01:39

SaltyNZ:

matisyahu:

Apologies in advance if this has been already addressed but where does Spark, 2 Degrees and One NZ sit in regards to RCS -

None of us have an RCS service at present. I can't speak directly for Spark or One but I imagine reasons will be much the same as 2degrees: Apple didn't support it, and it will be challenging to get customers to pay for it, so we would be spending on the order of $3M for no payback. That might change now that Apple intend to release support, but there's still the cost problem.

Probably won't see any official info from any carrier at least till after there are more details on the Apple release.

I'm surprised that NZ carriers didn't do what a few US carriers did which was to throw in the towel and let Google deal with the details of providing RCS support.

"When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called 'the People's Stick'"

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#3163079 24-Nov-2023 07:05

matisyahu:

I'm surprised that NZ carriers didn't do what a few US carriers did which was to throw in the towel and let Google deal with the details of providing RCS support.

Nobody has exactly been crying out for it. *shrug*

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tstone

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#3163092 24-Nov-2023 07:52

Thanks for all the explanations, it's starting to make sense, although there's a few people who appear to be anti Google, which doesn't help explain.

When I exchange RCS messages with others who use Google RCS why does it show the encrypted symbol if "the message goes in plain text from sender to receiver via Google"?

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#3163123 24-Nov-2023 09:13

tstone:
Thanks for all the explanations, it's starting to make sense, although there's a few people who appear to be anti Google, which doesn't help explain.

When I exchange RCS messages with others who use Google RCS why does it show the encrypted symbol if "the message goes in plain text from sender to receiver via Google"?

Either Google is lying, or some of the posts above are bordering on paranoid, according to this article https://www.theverge.com/2023/8/8/23824800/google-messages-rcs-end-to-end-encryption-default-group
Personally, I prefer carrier-agnostic messaging services. Telecom companies have a long history of obscure pricing mechanisms and hidden/exorbitant charges, eg roaming, voicemail, MMS, premium numbers. A service that just needs an IP connection gives less opportunity for the telecom to clip the ticket

SaltyNZ

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#3163126 24-Nov-2023 09:29

shk292:
Personally, I prefer carrier-agnostic messaging services. Telecom companies have a long history of obscure pricing mechanisms and hidden/exorbitant charges, eg roaming, voicemail, MMS, premium numbers. A service that just needs an IP connection gives less opportunity for the telecom to clip the ticket

You either pay in $ or you pay in having your private data taken and used to push you ads. Google doesn't provide RCS for charity purposes. Their money comes from pushing you ads. So, draw your own conclusions on whether the "end to end encryption" is really end to end - in the sense that a security researcher means - or not. Even if it isn't, they still know who the endpoints are and can add that graph info on their pile of stuff they know about you.

It isn't paranoia. It's literally their business.

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#3163132 24-Nov-2023 09:56

SaltyNZ:

You either pay in $ or you pay in having your private data taken and used to push you ads. Google doesn't provide RCS for charity purposes. Their money comes from pushing you ads. So, draw your own conclusions on whether the "end to end encryption" is really end to end - in the sense that a security researcher means - or not. Even if it isn't, they still know who the endpoints are and can add that graph info on their pile of stuff they know about you.

It isn't paranoia. It's literally their business.

The paranoid bit i was referring to was this:

If you use Google RCS, the message goes in plain text from sender to receiver via Google, which is not subject to local laws but only those of the USA. Nothing prevents Google data-mining Google RCS messages or sharing them with third parties for commercial purposes. They are also inspectable by USA security & law enforcement agencies often without a warrant of any type.

Generally, RCS seems no worse than carrier provided services in terms of adverts and spam. Google's app moves spam straight into a separate folder, which the default SMS system never seemed able to do. I get a smattering of spam voice calls and instances of CLID spoofing that date will before RCS, and which the telecom seems powerless to do anything about.
I'd suggest a read of this article if anyone thinks telecom companies are innocent of trying to sell user data and push adverts:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phorm

SaltyNZ

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#3163133 24-Nov-2023 10:03

shk292:
I'd suggest a read of this article if anyone thinks telecom companies are innocent of trying to sell user data and push adverts:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phorm

Having just done my mandatory annual refresher course on the New Zealand Privacy Act - which I assume is also probably required for the other guys - I assure you that selling user data is a lot more difficult for carriers here than the US.

Google directly integrates chatbot services like Phorm into RCS.

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