Towing 3500kg caravan

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2391 posts

Uber Geek

#3271616 14-Aug-2024 19:40

Batman: Are there other cheaper utes that tow 3.5T that is not a ranger?

realistically there is no ute that can legally tow 3.5 ton in real life. its basically an advertising gimmick. thats simply because they all break their GVM limits as soon as you put any kind of load on the ute. its just no one really looks at that until after you crash. no doubt insurance will try to claim the overloading caused the accident.

personally i would stick to 2500kg caravans. a whole lot cheaper, a lot easier to set up for towing (inertia brakes instead of electric) so it can be towed by different vehicles. smaller caravan so less side wind loads which makes towing easier.

gzt

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Uber Geek

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#3271625 14-Aug-2024 20:11

Ute is chosen because it's usually the primary around town casual vehicle.

Like others have said - legally for that weight you should be looking at a class 2 license. Easy. That will cost you $1000.

At that point you can look at light and medium trucks circa 15-20k you will get something low mileage. Add a tow hitch at 2-3k depending on model and you have enough $$ left for regular maintenance and some extra ballast weight for the rear axle if you really want it for safety. You might have enough left over for a town car if you really need it.

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#3271628 14-Aug-2024 20:26

gzt: Ute is chosen because it's usually the primary around town casual vehicle.

Like others have said - legally for that weight you should be looking at a class 2 license. Easy. That will cost you $1000.

At that point you can look at light and medium trucks circa 15-20k you will get something low mileage. Add a tow hitch at 2-3k depending on model and you have enough $$ left for regular maintenance and some extra ballast weight for the rear axle if you really want it for safety. You might have enough left over for a town car if you really need it.

its not just class2 but the utes GVM.

light truck, older ones are cheap but i would not recommend it unless going to a 5th wheel. same GVM problem, really slow and uncomfortable to drive. 6 tonner is good, but need class2 (and cof). again uncomfortable and slow, plus the price gets right up for anything half decent. better to convert it to a camper imho.

gzt

17137 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3271629 14-Aug-2024 20:29

its not just class2 but the utes GVM.

Yes, exactly. Utes with that loading are overpriced and high kms compared to the light and medium truck market for the same $.

johno1234

2807 posts

Uber Geek

#3271633 14-Aug-2024 20:51

I like the 5th wheel option. Putting the hitch weight over the axle works really well. Easy to hook up and massive space.

MartinGZ

359 posts

Ultimate Geek

Subscriber

#3271637 14-Aug-2024 21:09

johno1234: I like the 5th wheel option. Putting the hitch weight over the axle works really well. Easy to hook up and massive space.

Any 5th wheel is almost certainly Class 2 licence and too heavy for a ute. I know someone who used a ute with 5th wheel and then changed to a Ram after he had crunched the numbers. They were way overweight and wisely made the fairly expensive choice to make the rig legal. Yes I know you see ute/5th wheel combinations on the road - yet more heads in the sand.

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#3271644 14-Aug-2024 21:37

MartinGZ:

johno1234: I like the 5th wheel option. Putting the hitch weight over the axle works really well. Easy to hook up and massive space.

Any 5th wheel is almost certainly Class 2 licence and too heavy for a ute. I know someone who used a ute with 5th wheel and then changed to a Ram after he had crunched the numbers. They were way overweight and wisely made the fairly expensive choice to make the rig legal. Yes I know you see ute/5th wheel combinations on the road - yet more heads in the sand.

you can do 5th wheel with light trailers/caravans. used to see a few around, single cab utes pulling a 5th wheel caravan. only requires class1. but its a costly setup and you can't carry much in the ute, but that also keeps in within gvm. but it also gives you a longer caravan as they put the beds over the ute part.

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pdh

343 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3271678 15-Aug-2024 08:07

Eyeballing TradeMe, there aren't many old/cheap RAMs for sale - but there are a lot of GM's Silverados.

I'd think many of them would tow a 3500 Kg trailer safely.

No idea about gross weight & licencing under NZ requirements.

johno1234

2807 posts

Uber Geek

#3271683 15-Aug-2024 08:19

Slight overkill?

2016 Keystone Cougar 5th Wheeler + 2015 Volvo FH16

Senecio

2712 posts

Uber Geek

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#3271771 15-Aug-2024 09:05

johno1234:

Slight overkill?

2016 Keystone Cougar 5th Wheeler + 2015 Volvo FH16

The cheapest new Landcruiser 300 is $133k. Once you add on the $100k+ for a 3,500kg caravan that Volvo combination looks like a real bargain!

johno1234

2807 posts

Uber Geek

#3271895 15-Aug-2024 10:42

Plus you would be the undisputed king of the campground. I would have Bon Jovi playing "Wanted Dead Or Alive" over the PA as I drive in.

eracode

Smpl Mnmlst
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#3271899 15-Aug-2024 10:57

johno1234:

Slight overkill?

2016 Keystone Cougar 5th Wheeler + 2015 Volvo FH16

For what you get, it looks like a bargain - but I guess the price reflects the likely very low level of demand. Hate to think what it all cost as new.

Sometimes I just sit and think. Other times I just sit.

Scott3

3970 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3271954 15-Aug-2024 11:07

On driver licensing, (Not legal advise), but my reading of the wording, makes it sound like you need to add the GVM of the tow vehicle and the trailer together to find the GCM for licensing purposes.

So if we take the rig with the Mazda at the bottom of this post, the Utes GVM is ~ 3200kg, and the 5th wheel is ~3450, giving a sum of 6650kg, which is well above the class 2 limit.

Of course the GCM of the ute is just 6000kg, meaning it is not possible to carry the full payload of the ute (actually it needs to be close to empty), concurrent with such a heavy trailer, without the combination exceeding the tow vehicles GCM rating.

If I am correct in the above, it means it is relatively easy to cross the class 1 license limit with 3T + trailers, even if the actual on road weight is under 6000kg.

https://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/1999/0100/latest/whole.html#DLM4391100

MartinGZ:

Any 5th wheel is almost certainly Class 2 licence and too heavy for a ute. I know someone who used a ute with 5th wheel and then changed to a Ram after he had crunched the numbers. They were way overweight and wisely made the fairly expensive choice to make the rig legal. Yes I know you see ute/5th wheel combinations on the road - yet more heads in the sand.

while many 5th wheels are massive, they don't have to be.

Below is unit that I lifted from a trade me listing.

2100kg dry, so even with a reasonable payload, is light enough to stay comfortably under the 6000 GCM of the ranger (especially given the 5th wheel setup occupies most of the space in the tray), and a decent chance that the it would stay under class 1 license limits also.

having the downforce above the rear axle is a heap better than having it behind the rear bumper, meaning a 5th wheel can be set up with a heap more downforce, which is great for dynamic stability.

gallery carousel 1

gallery carousel 2

Even for the 3,450 kg loaded 5th wheel like the below, a Thai built ute is going to have a much easier time, and be much more dynamically stable than a comparable weight regular caravan. Payload for the ute will be reduced to ~250kg, but given the tray is essentially unavailable for loading, and on the assumption there are two or less people in the ute, this should be possible to stay under the utes 6000kg GCM.

gallery carousel 19

Scott3

3970 posts

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Lifetime subscriber

#3271959 15-Aug-2024 11:29

johno1234:

Slight overkill?

2016 Keystone Cougar 5th Wheeler + 2015 Volvo FH16

In terms of capital cost, assuming you only need to seat two in the truck, its a fairly cheap option.

Below truck is a 2013 truck with 781,336km asking $21k.

gallery carousel 1
https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/trucks/tractor-units/listing/4832608433

Half the price of the cheapest Landcruiser 200 on trademe (which can only tow 3500kg), and one third the price of this dodge ram (the kind of car ute which would be needed to tow that 4500kg 5th wheel). And of course the actual truck comes with a 5th wheel coupler

https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/cars/dodge/ram/listing/4767381246

Of course that route is not without it's downsides.

6 monthly COF's (that said, if you want to have a 4500kg caravan, that is unavoidable for both the tow vehicle and the caravan)
Towbars need to be certified (applies to every vehicle over 3500kg), in reality, this means unless you are willing to pony up a several thousand for a regular towbar to be fitted, you are restricted to towing 5th wheel style trailers
2 seater only
RUC's at truck rate ($126 /100km)
Can't drive in class 1 license, even not towing.
Impractically tall, and expensive in RUC's to daily drive.
Generally 2wd only
While truck parts last a crazy long time, when they come up for replacement, due things like tires aren't cheap
Weight rating's can be so high, you could end up needing a class 3 license. The red truck above is Gross vehicle mass: 18,000 kg, Tare weight: 6,860 kg. This is fine to drive alone on class 2, but if we go with the interpretation of adding the GVM's together for the purpose of driver licensing, hook up a 4500kg trailer, and you are solidly in class 3 territory. (Kinda stupid if you ask me, as the on road weight is likely under 12,000kg, the class 2 combined vehicle limit)
Steps to get in

johno1234:

Plus you would be the undisputed king of the campground. I would have Bon Jovi playing "Wanted Dead Or Alive" over the PA as I drive in.

I suspect this is the is a big chunk of it.

An actual big rig style truck is simply way cooler than a Landcruiser, Ram, Canter etc. And when you can get one at a fraction of the cost, why not...

Wheelbarrow01

1725 posts

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Chorus

#3271972 15-Aug-2024 12:42

I've had three different Rangers over the years - A 2007 PK Ranger XLT, a 2012 PX Ranger XLT, and a 2016 Ranger Wildtrak. They all towed a range of weights adequately.

I currently have a 2011 VW Touareg V8 TDi diesel. Its towing ability blows all my Rangers out of the water for a few reasons:

Obviously there is the power/torque delta - 250kW of power and 800nm of torque, both of which far exceed the outputs of any Ranger (New Raptor has 292kw but only 583 torques)
The Touareg also has self leveling airbag suspension which beautifully compensates for the extra load when towing to make it so very comfortable and agile.
Despite having a much bigger and more powerful engine, the Touareg uses a lot less fuel than any of my Rangers did (I guess because it does more with less effort).

Yes I know VW's can be expensive when things go wrong, but the same can be said for Rangers - ask me how I know!!

In terms of towing, I have a 1.5 tonne caravan, a roughly 2 tonne boat/trailer, and a bunch of other smaller stuff. A couple of weeks ago I towed a 2.5 tonne scissor lift on a fairly hefty trailer, so the combination weight of the two would have been around 3 tonnes. It towed beautifully both around town and on the motorway - still power and control in abundance. I've previously towed a digger of similar weight behind my Wildtrak and it was not nearly as effortless.

The people who write off the Touareg have generally never driven or lived with one. My 4.2 V8 Touareg has even more power/torque than the preceding 5 litre V10 that successfully towed a 747 on Top Gear.

But I do want to make it clear - anyone who tows a trailer that weighs more than the towing vehicle is asking for trouble. It's fine so long as the vehicle is travelling in the direction you want it to, but when things go pear shaped, they go real pear shaped real quick. It's just basic physics....

Autoexpert John Cadogan has plenty of YouTube content discussing this issue.

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