Towing 3500kg caravan

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2476 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3273213 18-Aug-2024 12:42

Wheelbarrow01:

But I do want to make it clear - anyone who tows a trailer that weighs more than the towing vehicle is asking for trouble. It's fine so long as the vehicle is travelling in the direction you want it to, but when things go pear shaped, they go real pear shaped real quick. It's just basic physics....

Autoexpert John Cadogan has plenty of YouTube content discussing this issue.

MartinGZ:

As for John Cadogan, he used to be good, but he's lost the plot. But let's not sidetrack the thread on that one. 😀

@MartinGZ

I wouldn't take your advice and I hope nobody else does. He definitely has not "lost the plot" on towing but a lot of people are upset with his position in other areas, say electrical vehicles. I don't like his delivery style but his mechanical engineering credentials and expertise make him a credible expert.

John Cadogan's videos on towing are a very good resource for those who want to understand the issues of towing.

He is based in Australia where the regulations are more clearcut than in New Zealand but the principles he discusses and the real-world examples he presents are worth viewing particularly as we buy the same vehicles and many of the same caravans.

He publishes new videos on towing every few months, like these from the last year:

Family holiday towing: What load is actually safe? about the marketing of towing weights

The dumbest thing caravanners always say about comparing towing caravans with towing semi-trailers

A caravan hater's technical guide to suspension choice & stability about such issues as leaf springs and independent suspensions

4 years in prison for overloaded caravan driver including the issue of tyre overloading

Airl

8 posts

Wannabe Geek

#3273214 18-Aug-2024 12:44

Thanks everyone so much. I have read and digested every single reply.

My options are:

1. $30k Land Cruiser from a possibly dodgy dealer in Christchurch. 1998. Import. I may be being a bit paranoid about dodgy but have asked for a longer than 3 month’s warranty. He just said no but will fix anything that needs doing to get a new warrant.

2. $31 wild track from private owner here in wellington.

Both are diesel 4*4

Cruiser is nearly 5k litres, unsure if it is 300 series because I don’t know if that is a thing they would advertise. I would.
Wild track is 2016 (not sure if that’s a year to avoid) 3.2k L

Both have similar K odo. Mid 100. Landcruiser slightly more.

By the way, I never towed anything and I am a 60 year old female.

I have lived in a motorhome and toured the country all last year. Just became a grandparent and will mostly be using the vehicle without towing.

Airl

8 posts

Wannabe Geek

#3273218 18-Aug-2024 13:16

The landcruiser is a 1998 Cygnus v8

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#3273219 18-Aug-2024 13:20

Airl: The landcruiser is a 1998 Cygnus v8

thats not a diesel. thats a 4.7 liter v8 petrol. thats going to cost a heap for towing. the diesels of that era was the 4.2 straight 6.

Airl

8 posts

Wannabe Geek

#3273222 18-Aug-2024 13:22

Omg. Yep. So no to that then.

Scott3

3964 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3273223 18-Aug-2024 13:25

For those referring to towing larger light trailers in the USA, note the situation in NZ is not directly comparable.

Semi trailer stability at speed is a factor of both speed & center of mass (% of trailer weight on the ball is the easiest proxy).

NZ has a max towing speed limit of 90km/h, similar to Europe, where ball down force as low as ~4% is specified on some tow vehicles.

In the USA, many states allow towing at the same speed limit as for passenger cars, which can be as high as 85 MPH (137 km/h), and it is commonplace for traffic to drive faster than the posted speed limit. At these speeds, 10 - 15% ball down force is required for stability. When combined with trailers much larger than are typically towed recreationally in NZ, requires some very large & strong tow vehicles to deal with the ball downforce.

tweake:

Bung:

The following is from the NZTA guide to safe towing for light vehicles with added bolding.

"Most vehicles have tow ratings given to them by the manufacturer specifying the gross trailer weight braked, unbraked, or both, that the vehicle can safely tow. Although the law does not require these tow ratings to be followed, the NZ Transport Agency recommends that they be taken into account.

In addition to the requirements above, the law requires that every light vehicle and trailer combination must be capable of stopping within a distance of seven metres from a speed of 30km/h. In effect, this means that the maximum allowable weight of an unbraked trailer is limited by the weight and braking ability of the vehicle being used to tow it."

correct.

when was the last time you heard of anyone actually being checked? this is why unbraked 2 ton (or less) trailers are fairly common. i was told a botting mag did some testing and none of the boat trailers tested passed. people skimp on the braking to cut costs. common thing to see with hire trailers, the braking actuators detuned so the brakes don't work as much. i even had a customer come in the other day with a 2.5 ton trailer that had 1.5 ton brakes fitted to it.

its a loop hole in the law that's over due to be closed.

My take is that light vehicles have been deliberately excluded, and for good reason:

Manufacturer loading specs are often hard to come by (especially for older vehicles, and JDM vehicles). Unlike heavy vehicles there is no loading certificate. This makes enforcement of compliance of staying within manufacturer weight limits impractical.
My SUV has a spot on the nameplate for GVM, but it is not filled out. Good luck finding more advance information like max axle loads, max roof load etc, on an old car without the manual. (And the section for trailer towing which does set out axle load limits for my SUV applies to owners in Aust only, so doesn't cover NZ)
A lot of information in the NZTA database is fairly garbage. When I registered a new (homebuilt) trailer, I was asked for the GVM, and just made something up on the spot. A quick google search of a 24kWh leaf gives a 1950GVM, yet mine is in the NZTA database at 1750kg, which would be ~250kg total payload in a 5 seater car....
Often manufacturers give tiny payloads. Take a 2022 tesla model 3. 389kg payload. put 5x 78kg adults in it and you are at the limit (even with zero accessories, zero cargo etc).
Often manufactures simply don't bother with tow rating their car's. Something like a Nissan leaf doesn't have any tow rating, but being 1500kg+ empty has no dynamic issues towing a sub 600kg trailer.
Given our relatively low speed limits, vehicle loading (or vehicles in general) doesn't seem to be a big factor in fatal / injury crashes in NZ. Drivers are the cause of the vast, vast majority of crashes in NZ.
If we had strictly enforced rules requiring manufacturers ratings be followed, it would have quite an impact on the NZ public.
- Everybody with a garden / mini luggage trailer and a Nissan leaf would need to find another tow vehicle or give up towing.
- Many people would need to buy higher payload vehicles (typically larger vehicles or utes), to meet their occasional payload needs.
- We would need a pathway to upgrade GVM's (like exists in aussie)
- In general, it would add substantial cost or inconvenience to the public with little safety gain.
- Much lower hanging fruit to imporve road safey

On the crashes associated with poor loading, it is unclear if a law change would have any impact. Towing heavier stuff with light vehicles already commands a lot of respect.

There is a crash with a video recording in aussie (stricter loading laws), where a driver towing a boat passes another vehicle, the trailer becomes unstable, fishtails and ultimately the entire rig jackknifes and rolls. Ultimate cause was that the front support for the boat was connected to the trailer frame with U bolts, and it had slipped backwards, altering the COG rearwards, and lowing the speed threshold to go unstable. Couple with a high speed pass, and there was a big mess. An example where a law change wouldn't help.

I would be in favor of copying the UK and introducing a license for towing medium trailers:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62876d2cd3bf7f1f4947d306/inf30-requirements-for-towing-trailers-in-great-britain.pdf

Airl

8 posts

Wannabe Geek

#3273224 18-Aug-2024 13:26

It is a diesel v6. Not Cygnus. 100 series.

Should I get that or the wild track?

Sharesies

Trade NZ and US shares and funds with Sharesies (affiliate link).

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#3273227 18-Aug-2024 13:39

Airl: It is a diesel v6. Not Cygnus. 100 series.

Should I get that or the wild track?

no such thing as a diesel v6 100 series. the only diesel v6 they have ever made is the latest landcruiser.

Airl

8 posts

Wannabe Geek

#3273228 18-Aug-2024 13:41

https://autotrader.co.nz/used-cars-for-sale/toyota/landcruiser/12787

Or

https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/cars/ford/ranger/listing/4833158139

Airl

8 posts

Wannabe Geek

#3273229 18-Aug-2024 13:48

Ok. While you all geek out about towing, I am unemployed due to autism disclosure. Too old to get a job and on a measly income. I can’t live with other people. I love my motorhome but I want my family to be able to visit and stay with me. I will do anything

I have come to you experts for real world advice. I have sold my motorhome and will be homeless while I wait for my caravan to be built and shipped.

My gut is telling me wildtrack. I don’t think I should buy based on gut but I took one out for a test yesterday and it is nice. It also has room for my stuff which will be useful while I am homeless.

By the way, if anyone has room in wellington for a woman, a small dog and a motorhome worth of stuff for a few weeks, I can pay a reasonable rent.

Scott3

3964 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3273230 18-Aug-2024 13:50

Airl: Thanks everyone so much. I have read and digested every single reply.

My options are:

1. $30k Land Cruiser from a possibly dodgy dealer in Christchurch. 1998. Import. I may be being a bit paranoid about dodgy but have asked for a longer than 3 month’s warranty. He just said no but will fix anything that needs doing to get a new warrant.

2. $31 wild track from private owner here in wellington.

Both are diesel 4*4

Cruiser is nearly 5k litres, unsure if it is 300 series because I don’t know if that is a thing they would advertise. I would.
Wild track is 2016 (not sure if that’s a year to avoid) 3.2k L

Both have similar K odo. Mid 100. Landcruiser slightly more.

By the way, I never towed anything and I am a 60 year old female.

I have lived in a motorhome and toured the country all last year. Just became a grandparent and will mostly be using the vehicle without towing.

Airl: The landcruiser is a 1998 Cygnus v8

Do you already have, or have plans to get a class 2 license
Are you locked in with the 3500kg caravan?

A slightly lighter (say 2800kg GVM) caravan would be heaps easier

Given you have never towed anything, If it is for touring, i think you might be better served by campervan. Much easier to deal with than a massive caravan.

There is quite a learning curve to trailers (reversing etc), so starting with something at the absolutely max of the light trailer range seems a risky decision.

That landcruiser is a 100 series (J100 here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Land_Cruiser)

The series are just each version of the car. It went from 80 series -> 100 -> 200 -> 300.

As per the other comment, that's a petrol engine.

I put some serious though into buying the Lexus equivalent of the same car. 100 series has is a great reputation, and is rated for 3500kg towing, and they hold their value. But you are talking about a 26 year old car, so things will need attention due to age.

If it has the adjustable suspension, it has some consumables which need replacement every decade or so which are quite expensive.

It is a bit smaller then the more modern 200 & 300 series car's.

Downside to that vehicle is it is extremely thirsty. Rated for ~16 L/100km, real world of ~20 L/100km not towing, and I would guess around 40L/100km towing. Fine if you don't cover much distance, but otherwise quite expensive.

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#3273231 18-Aug-2024 14:04

Scott3:

My take is that light vehicles have been deliberately excluded, and for good reason:

Manufacturer loading specs are often hard to come by (especially for older vehicles, and JDM vehicles). Unlike heavy vehicles there is no loading certificate. This makes enforcement of compliance of staying within manufacturer weight limits impractical.
My SUV has a spot on the nameplate for GVM, but it is not filled out. Good luck finding more advance information like max axle loads, max roof load etc, on an old car without the manual. (And the section for trailer towing which does set out axle load limits for my SUV applies to owners in Aust only, so doesn't cover NZ)
A lot of information in the NZTA database is fairly garbage. When I registered a new (homebuilt) trailer, I was asked for the GVM, and just made something up on the spot. A quick google search of a 24kWh leaf gives a 1950GVM, yet mine is in the NZTA database at 1750kg, which would be ~250kg total payload in a 5 seater car....
Often manufacturers give tiny payloads. Take a 2022 tesla model 3. 389kg payload. put 5x 78kg adults in it and you are at the limit (even with zero accessories, zero cargo etc).
Often manufactures simply don't bother with tow rating their car's. Something like a Nissan leaf doesn't have any tow rating, but being 1500kg+ empty has no dynamic issues towing a sub 600kg trailer.
Given our relatively low speed limits, vehicle loading (or vehicles in general) doesn't seem to be a big factor in fatal / injury crashes in NZ. Drivers are the cause of the vast, vast majority of crashes in NZ.
If we had strictly enforced rules requiring manufacturers ratings be followed, it would have quite an impact on the NZ public.

Everybody with a garden / mini luggage trailer and a Nissan leaf would need to find another tow vehicle or give up towing.
Many people would need to buy higher payload vehicles (typically larger vehicles or utes), to meet their occasional payload needs.
We would need a pathway to upgrade GVM's (like exists in aussie)
In general, it would add substantial cost or inconvenience to the public with little safety gain.
Much lower hanging fruit to imporve road safey

manufacture specs these days is relatively easy to find. you can under stand 40 years ago when there was no internet, but not today. if a manufacture has no or low tow rating then its probably not a good car to tow with. so go get something more suitable for the job. i think thats a positive rather than a negative.

small garden trailers are easily towable by small cars, within their ratings. you can also add brakes and double/triple the amount towable. there would be no need to change vehicles, even a corolla will do 1300kg with brakes. perfectly fine for the occasional load.

utes are not much higher, most max out at 700kg unbraked.

the only problem is cost of upgrading trailers and thats mostly the 1000kg to 2000kg bracket. every thing else is already braked or small enough not to need brakes.

as far as crash stats go, crash caused by driver is the main excuse especially as they rarely ever get investigated. the stats don't mean much.

it may only be a small safety gain today, but times are changing, and bigger trailers with high power tow vehicles are more and more commonly driven by inexperienced drivers.

Wheelbarrow01

1723 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Chorus

#3273236 18-Aug-2024 14:35

Airl: https://autotrader.co.nz/used-cars-for-sale/toyota/landcruiser/12787

Or

https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/cars/ford/ranger/listing/4833158139

Those are very different propositions so a lot will come down to your own personal preferences, but a few things stand out:

The Landcruiser is pre-2000, so that means getting a new WOF every 6 months - that gets to be a pain in the butt after a while (I have a couple of pre-2000 vehicles so I know). I certainly wouldn't want to have a pre-2000 daily driver just for this one reason alone.

You are getting a lot more functionality and mod cons in the Wildtrak - radar cruise control, bluetooth connectivity, GPS navigation, heated seats, electronic trailer sway mitigation (this is particularly salient), lane guidance plus much more. 15,000km service intervals on the Wildtrak - the Landcruiser is probably more like every 5000kms for that era. In theory you could service that Landcruiser yourself but the Wildtrak requires more knowledge and skill to service.

One thing to note - the seller of that PXII Wildtrak you linked to claims it has autonomous emergency braking - it does not. That feature was not released until the 2019 model year PXIII Wildtrak. The only braking the PXII does autonomously is when maintaining the set following distance with the radar cruise control activated, but if the car in front slams the brakes on, you do need to take evasive action yourself.

For the record, I regularly achieved around 7.5-8 litres per 100kms in my 2016 Wildtrak on the open road. My caravan is significantly lighter than the one you are considering (only around 1000kgs empty) but it towed it well. The trailer sway mitigation is really useful when a fully loaded B double truck goes barrelling past in the other direction, causing a huge gust of wind from the side. Ford recommends only towing in the Ranger while in Sport mode. This effectively locks off 6th gear resulting in elevated fuel use, however this provides some protection to the automatic transmission. I'd strongly suggest an aftermarket transmission cooler for the type of towing you're looking at to further mitigate the potential for issues with the transmission.

Also, I agree with @Scott3 that for someone who has never towed anything in their life to start with the largest permissible caravan is a bit of a worry. I started reversing my parents trailers when I was 12 years old and I've had another 35 years to perfect the art. People with no experience generally find reversing a small garden trailer a challenge. That is magnified many times when you're dealing with a long and tall box that you can't see around, particularly in an environment such as a campground where there are trees, posts with electricity boxes on them, and other people's vans to avoid.

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#3273237 18-Aug-2024 14:44

Airl: https://autotrader.co.nz/used-cars-for-sale/toyota/landcruiser/12787

Or

https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/cars/ford/ranger/listing/4833158139

ranger.

Airl

8 posts

Wannabe Geek

#3273240 18-Aug-2024 15:13

Thanks again awesome geeks. I will be doing some intense research and doing a couple of education courses.

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