Sam91:

 

Former male competing in women's MMA in the video below. Where do we draw the line?

 

This is just the beginning.

DaveB:

 

networkn:

 

I can't really get my head around the fact that he/she doesn't feel he/she has an advantage they shouldn't have. 

 

My own sense of justice would prevent me from competing as a woman I think. 

 

 

he/she/WHATEVER is NOT a woman. Never was, never will be. And with that he/she/WHATEVER should not be allowed to compete in the games under the current longstanding historical rules.

 

It's completely fair enough that trans athletes competing in competitive sport can generate controversy, and it's okay to healthily debate how it should be approached, but really needs to be discussed respectfully given it's a sensitive topic.

It's clearly established that there is a difference between sex and gender. Sex is biological, gender is not. Laurel Hubbard's biological sex may be male, but her gender is female, it's what she identifies with and what we should refer to her by.

A cisgender heterosexual person will never fully understand the struggle it is to come out, let alone when in the public eye, and to refer to a person as 'it' or 'whatever' crosses the line and is dehumanising, disrespectful, and downright intolerant. Dismissing one's gender identity is the opposite of real equality.

I've watched a lot of weightlifting over the years, both male and female and I've also done my fair share of Olympic lifting myself. Weightlifting is not all about muscle which is what testosterone effects, but this is the only benchmark used by the IOC to allow Hubbard to compete as a woman. Weightlifting also involves your bone structure and central nervous system, both of which in this case is that of a man. 

As soon as Hubbard set up for her first lift I could see that her upper body and shoulders were a completely different shape to that of the woman, much more masculine.

There is also the fact that as a man Hubbard has trained at much higher weights then the woman would have and is just more used to getting under heavier weights. There is also the fact that you have a 40-year-old lifting (if she had got it up) 15-20KG more then competitors in there late teens and early twenties.

My opinion is that this is totally unfair but I also think that if Hubbard is chosen for the Olympics we will see a lot more protest from the other competitors when you have the Baltic states, Russia and China in the mix.

MikeB4:

 

I do not have an issue this this. The sports controlling body is ok with it and the competitors are open about their circumstances.

 

As far as I'm concerned Laurel Hubbard is a women, no issue with that. However, she's a woman in a man's body and as such I think she has an unfair advantage over the other female competitors.

I believe Hubbard is being selfish and putting herself ahead of the sport. She's damaging it, degrading its credibility as a fair contest and women will give up on it if they feel they can't compete against competitors with men's physiques.

She should hold her head up high and just stop.

I am unsure how I feel about it.

She is a woman, she sees herself as a woman. Fine.

She had to stand down for a year, until her Testosterone levels were at an OK level for the IOC, fine.

She is legally allowed to compete, and therefore, she should compete if she wants to. Science has not proven that she has an unfair advantage.

However, as someone pointed out to me yesterday, in 1981, Underarm bowling was legal in Cricket....

As it turned out, it was all OK. She competed, and withdrew because of injury. No controversy ongoing.

She is a woman and therefore entitled to equality. Qualified equality is not equality. Maybe the sport needs to create a new group say call it 'open grade' were all participants are free to select that group to compete in.

MikeB4:

 

She is a woman and therefore entitled to equality. Qualified equality is not equality. Maybe the sport needs to create a new group say call it 'open grade' were all participants are free to select that group to compete in.

 

It's not equality when you have a man's body competing against women's bodies, in an event where that gives you an advantage.

Your second comment makes sense but doubt practicality will allow it to take off.

MikeB4:

 

She is a woman and therefore entitled to equality. Qualified equality is not equality. Maybe the sport needs to create a new group say call it 'open grade' were all participants are free to select that group to compete in.

 

There is no issue with gender equality. But in some of these sports its about gender inequality, whereby the physical being is not equal to the other women physical being in the competition. The body is not equal

tdgeek:

 

MikeB4:

 

She is a woman and therefore entitled to equality. Qualified equality is not equality. Maybe the sport needs to create a new group say call it 'open grade' were all participants are free to select that group to compete in.

 

 

There is no issue with gender equality. But in some of these sports its about gender inequality, whereby the physical being is not equal to the other women physical being in the competition. The body is not equal

 

 

 

The participants are not the issue, this sport and many others are not adjusting.

I agree that the best way to handle this is with an "open" event. This is how Squash NZ handles it when we have high ranking women who can't find equal competitors so they compete in the open. So anyone of any level can compete. This seems the fairest way to handle it. 

I don't consider equality to mean that someone with an unfair advantage can win.

MikeB4:

 

tdgeek:

 

MikeB4:

 

She is a woman and therefore entitled to equality. Qualified equality is not equality. Maybe the sport needs to create a new group say call it 'open grade' were all participants are free to select that group to compete in.

 

 

There is no issue with gender equality. But in some of these sports its about gender inequality, whereby the physical being is not equal to the other women physical being in the competition. The body is not equal

 

 

 

 

The participants are not the issue, this sport and many others are not adjusting.

 

How can weightlifting adjust? The only way is to exclude transgender. Then that becomes a PC issue, but its nothing to do with PC issues or equality. Its about an unfair advantage. Drugs give an unfair advantage for strength and stamina. In weightlifting a transgender has an unfair advantage. There will be sports where its about skill than strength, so no issues there at all. Take netball. That requires skill. There will be some natural females that are solidly built, some that are slight, that doesnt matter as its a skill based sport. But weightlifting??  Transgenders should be excluded for obvious reasons

tdgeek:

 

 

 

How can weightlifting adjust? The only way is to exclude transgender. Then that becomes a PC issue, but its nothing to do with PC issues or equality. Its about an unfair advantage. Drugs give an unfair advantage for strength and stamina. In weightlifting a transgender has an unfair advantage. There will be sports where its about skill than strength, so no issues there at all. Take netball. That requires skill. There will be some natural females that are solidly built, some that are slight, that doesnt matter as its a skill based sport. But weightlifting??  Transgenders should be excluded for obvious reasons

 

As I said earlier by creating new groups like "open group" 

networkn:

 

I agree that the best way to handle this is with an "open" event. This is how Squash NZ handles it when we have high ranking women who can't find equal competitors so they compete in the open. So anyone of any level can compete. This seems the fairest way to handle it. 

 

I don't consider equality to mean that someone with an unfair advantage can win.

 

In sport nothing is really fair. Should a participant with very good sponsorship or wealthy and able to train more and purchase expensive coaches etc be excluded because its unfair?

MikeB4:

 

tdgeek:

 

 

 

How can weightlifting adjust? The only way is to exclude transgender. Then that becomes a PC issue, but its nothing to do with PC issues or equality. Its about an unfair advantage. Drugs give an unfair advantage for strength and stamina. In weightlifting a transgender has an unfair advantage. There will be sports where its about skill than strength, so no issues there at all. Take netball. That requires skill. There will be some natural females that are solidly built, some that are slight, that doesnt matter as its a skill based sport. But weightlifting??  Transgenders should be excluded for obvious reasons

 

 

As I said earlier by creating new groups like "open group" 

 

If you have Male, Female and Open, who would join the open group?  Just transgenders I guess. Natural males could too and will dominate

MikeB4:

 

networkn:

 

I agree that the best way to handle this is with an "open" event. This is how Squash NZ handles it when we have high ranking women who can't find equal competitors so they compete in the open. So anyone of any level can compete. This seems the fairest way to handle it. 

 

I don't consider equality to mean that someone with an unfair advantage can win.

 

 

 

 

In sport nothing is really fair. Should a participant with very good sponsorship or wealthy and able to train more and purchase expensive coaches etc be excluded because its unfair?

 

That's not insurmountable. In fact the poorest African runner who shows up with the talent and natural ability can attract a scholarship and subsequent professional sponsorship. 

But a man's body competing against women's bodies in a strength based event - I see that as insurmountably unfair.