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Hammerer
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  #1992555 10-Apr-2018 09:50
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(Edit: I see that the discussion has moved into the same issues while I was writing this short comment that became this tome)

 

Gender/sex issues have been around for a long time in sports. There have always been people excluded from competing in their sex/gender.

 

The reported cases are predominantly of "males" competing as "female" because of the physical advantages that are possible in most sports. Here's an example from the 1930s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dora_Ratjen

 

Most other types of sex/gender ambiguity are disadvantageous to competitive athletes or create social barriers that people find difficult to accept or overcome.

 

I think that we will find that equality arguments will be considered relatively meaningless and will not determine the outcome of this debate. Competition is based upon relative advantage which is almost the antithesis of equality. Sport has always been unfair because it caters to natural advantage. The equality pursued has been through rules against artificial advantage (e.g. against anabolic steroid use) and the extremes of natural advantage (e.g. "unnatural" levels of testosterone). But other artifical advantages have not been ruled against: the best trainers, best training location and facilities, best nutrition, the ability to train full-time, sponsorship, etc.

 

Inclusivity arguments are far more likely to win because this is the dominant political movement. The desire to include everyone who wants to compete will, almost by definition, compromise the advantage of those in the traditional categories. In many cases inclusivity will clearly disadvantage them. But this will not be seen as sufficient reason to halt this trend because this debate is not primarily about the sport or the competition.

 

The political trend will win this one as the context for Olympic and international sports has always been highly political. There is lots of evidence for this such as preference for European sports, political grandstanding by nations (e.g. Nazi Germany), national boycotts (e.g. of the Soviet Union), competitor demonstrations (e.g. support for black civil rights), and national programmes to enhance player performance (e.g. East Germany), and so on.

 

The primary reason for resisting this change is that it is changing one of the traditional pillars of these competitions. As many have pointed out, more open inclusivity will make it advantageous for some men to become women. Athletes are generally keen to gain whatever advantage they can so I'm sure that some will take this path.

 

This mean that there will be a new era in sporting records. I think that transition has already happened with the acceptance of artificial enhancements like blades for running. I'm already disenchanted by the result of that debate so that I don't have any interest in the results of the current debate as I no longer watch Olympic-style sports.

 

I doubt that blades will ever be accepted in rugby but gender transitions would become a big issue in women's rugby.

 

 

 

 




kryptonjohn
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  #1992557 10-Apr-2018 09:54
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Good points. If the medical awareness and technology were available, I have no doubt that totalitarian states such as the Soviet Union would have been chopping bits of male athletes and entering them into female Olympic events throughout their reign.

 

 


tripper1000
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  #1992568 10-Apr-2018 10:17
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In order for to each to excel and specialise in different roles in the survival of the species, evolution and nature builds males and females differently.

 

Typically someone who has the mechanical structure of a male has a strength advantage over someone with the mechanical structure of a female - this is one enabler in the historical cultural gender inequalities - males could physically and forcefully dominate females. In our civilised society, this is no longer acceptable.

 

In recognition of this strength difference, sports people have traditionally been grouped with their mechanical equals, not only gender but also weight classes and age classes so as to keep these mechanical differences more balanced. This segregation by size, age and gender is often termed sportsmanship and celebrates our differences.

 

In a skills based sports, you will often see reduced segregation by age or size and here I see no problem with the gender lines also being blurred. However if a strength based sport segregates by size and gender I don't believe it is sporting for someone with the mechanical structure of the male to compete against those with the mechanical structure of a female - this would be a dis-service to females and drag us back to the bad old days where those born female are side-lined.

 

What I see here is 'feelings' and self assigned 'identity' being made to out-rank mechanical differences, and is falls outside of good sportsmanship. It is no different to a 120Kg boxer 'feeling' or 'identifying' as a lightweight, and playing a couple of weight classes down. There is definitely a place for rock solid gender equality/neutrality within most aspects of society, but I think it is counter productive to take it onto strength based sport. 




networkn

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  #1992589 10-Apr-2018 10:20
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tripper1000:

 

In order for to each to excel and specialise in different roles in the survival of the species, evolution and nature builds males and females differently.

 

Typically someone who has the mechanical structure of a male has a strength advantage over someone with the mechanical structure of a female - this is one enabler in the historical cultural gender inequalities - males could physically and forcefully dominate females. In our civilised society, this is no longer acceptable.

 

In recognition of this strength difference, sports people have traditionally been grouped with their mechanical equals, not only gender but also weight classes and age classes so as to keep these mechanical differences more balanced. This segregation by size, age and gender is often termed sportsmanship and celebrates our differences.

 

In a skills based sports, you will often see reduced segregation by age or size and here I see no problem with the gender lines also being blurred. However if a strength based sport segregates by size and gender I don't believe it is sporting for someone with the mechanical structure of the male to compete against those with the mechanical structure of a female - this would be a dis-service to females and drag us back to the bad old days where those born female are side-lined.

 

What I see here is 'feelings' and self assigned 'identity' being made to out-rank mechanical differences, and is falls outside of good sportsmanship. It is no different to a 120Kg boxer 'feeling' or 'identifying' as a lightweight, and playing a couple of weight classes down. There is definitely a place for rock solid gender equality/neutrality within most aspects of society, but I think it is counter productive to take it onto strength based sport. 

 

 

 

 

This is a great post. Well written and well thought out. 

 

 


MikeAqua
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  #1992599 10-Apr-2018 10:35
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I think it depends on the sport.  In lawn bowls I don't see an issue. 

 

In physical sports males (biology, not gender identity) have a significant athletic advantage (skeletons, muscles, circulation, nervous system and competitive drive).

 

It is unfair in a physical sport that someone who has fully developed a male body can - after gender reassignment, compete with females.  They maintain a significant advantage over females. 

 

At the same time they are no longer competitive with males.  It's a tricky issue ... and I think it demonstrates there are practical limits to inclusiveness.

 

People have suggested an open category, but open means anyone can compete.  Second tier males will compete in the open events and win medals, trouncing any females who enter and also beating transgender males who are competing as women.

 

There would also need to be qualifying times/heights/distances.  How do you set those in a way that limits the number of competitors, but prevents males from dominating?

 

 

 

 

 

 





Mike


cruxis
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  #1992609 10-Apr-2018 10:55
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Absolutely those "gains" and changes she made while being a man are always there. Will never ever go away so she does have a  unfair advantage over a lifetime woman and will always have even though she passing the "tests" to what levels a women should be at. I doubt the doctors making  the rules have any real world experiments due to "ethical" reasons and its all numbers and theory.

 

It may be anecdotal experience but as someone who has done performance enhancements in the past but has never ever or would ever compete in a natural sports competition. I do know those enhancements are with you for life even after many years of being "natural". Sure I would pass any test now,  but the muscular gains and changes while on "cycle" are incredible are always underlying and come back so easily and so fast compared to a lifetime natural once training resumes. There just is no comparison. It is why a drugs cheat should be banned from natural competitions for life. There is a quote amongst us gym rats "once enhanced, your always enhanced you can never go back." So does "once a man, always a man" also apply?


MikeAqua
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  #1992619 10-Apr-2018 11:10
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cruxis:

 

There is a quote amongst us gym rats "once enhanced, your always enhanced you can never go back." So does "once a man, always a man" also apply?

 

 

The question this raises for me is how do female-to-male transgender athletes fare competing against males?

 

I'm unaware of any such athlete being competitive in a physical sport.





Mike


 
 
 

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tdgeek
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  #1992621 10-Apr-2018 11:11
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Seems to me that the discrimination card is trying to blur with the sports fairness card. Two different things altogether


cruxis
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  #1992642 10-Apr-2018 11:43
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MikeAqua:

 

cruxis:

 

There is a quote amongst us gym rats "once enhanced, your always enhanced you can never go back." So does "once a man, always a man" also apply?

 

 

The question this raises for me is how do female-to-male transgender athletes fare competing against males?

 

I'm unaware of any such athlete being competitive in a physical sport.

 

 

Not too well at all, as they are only allowed to bring there test levels up to that of a natural man which is about 50mg a week I think, no sane doctor would prescribe supra-physiologic levels for a transgender, that  would also cause a anti doping violation even for men. Also they do not have a lifetime of being on behind them.

 

The only way for a trans woman to surpass a natural man is to bring her/his levels past that of a man. Eg Enhanced Female bodybuilders can show how powerful supra-physiologic testosterone changes can be.

 

 


PhantomNVD
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  #1992668 10-Apr-2018 12:11
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Sport should separate ‘gender identity’ from ‘biological’ identity.

Born males (those without a womb, and thus having grownup with much higher levels of testosterone) compete in one category, and ‘born female’ in another.

Just like I can’t ‘feel older’ to compete in the older category and use my ‘biological’ youth advantage, gender assigned by choice is not the same as birth gender.

Rikkitic
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  #1992678 10-Apr-2018 12:19
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MikeB4:

 

I do not have an issue this this. The sports controlling body is ok with it and the competitors are open about their circumstances.

 

 

Good on you.

 

 





Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

 


 


Rikkitic
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  #1992687 10-Apr-2018 12:35
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As with so many Geekzone discussions, uninformed opinion and personal prejudice dominate over fact. I happen to have a good friend who is a world-renown medical expert in this field and as such, is an official consultant to the Olympics and other sports bodies. He has conducted research and provided advice in this area and transgender athletes have been allowed into competitions on the basis of his recommendations. According to him, there is no meaningful difference in sporting performance ability between CIS-women and transgenders who have completed sex reassignment therapy. There are small women and there are large women. A large CIS-woman is no different in ability than a transgender woman of the same size. 

 

I think some commentators here are letting their 'feelings' rule their heads. A transgender woman is not a man. Get over it.

 

 





Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

 


 


kryptonjohn
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  #1992698 10-Apr-2018 12:55
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Rikkitic:

 

As with so many Geekzone discussions, uninformed opinion and personal prejudice dominate over fact. I happen to have a good friend who is a world-renown medical expert in this field and as such, is an official consultant to the Olympics and other sports bodies. He has conducted research and provided advice in this area and transgender athletes have been allowed into competitions on the basis of his recommendations. According to him, there is no meaningful difference in sporting performance ability between CIS-women and transgenders who have completed sex reassignment therapy. There are small women and there are large women. A large CIS-woman is no different in ability than a transgender woman of the same size. 

 

I think some commentators here are letting their 'feelings' rule their heads. A transgender woman is not a man. Get over it.

 

 

If your friend has published research then you can name him. Who is this?

 

Hubbard was unremarkable as a young male weightlifter but after transition to an old female has a world championship medal and was on track to win Commonwealth gold. That makes it look to me that she has acquired an advantage.

 

Val Adams is a very large and powerful woman and one of the all time greats of women's shot put. But a middle of the road male shot putter would beat her easily. Men throw a shot *double* the weight of the women and they throw it further. All it takes is an average male shot putter to transition to female and all women's shot records will be beaten. Is that fair? I don't think so.

 

 

 

 

 

 


tdgeek
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  #1992709 10-Apr-2018 13:15
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Rikkitic:

 

As with so many Geekzone discussions, uninformed opinion and personal prejudice dominate over fact. I happen to have a good friend who is a world-renown medical expert in this field and as such, is an official consultant to the Olympics and other sports bodies. He has conducted research and provided advice in this area and transgender athletes have been allowed into competitions on the basis of his recommendations. According to him, there is no meaningful difference in sporting performance ability between CIS-women and transgenders who have completed sex reassignment therapy. There are small women and there are large women. A large CIS-woman is no different in ability than a transgender woman of the same size. 

 

I think some commentators here are letting their 'feelings' rule their heads. A transgender woman is not a man. Get over it.

 

 

 

 

Is this unequivocal fact? If it was, then there would be no issues or controversy over it, but there is. Due to discrimination over many years, LGBT has done it tough. Now, this sport issue is nothing to do with the LGBT community, but it does, for PC reasons. Its gone from one extreme (harsh discrimination) to the other extreme (wanting everything to be equal) because its topical. Sport is not equal, that is why there are gender sections, weight sections in some sports. But there is pressure to be equal for trans people.

 

Two wrongs don't make a right. As to "feelings", I agree. Very true. Its about what is fair in any one sport, not how pro Trans, anyone is


MikeB4
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  #1992718 10-Apr-2018 13:31
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@tdgeek the pressence of controversy does not eliminate fact.

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