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Rikkitic
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  #1992719 10-Apr-2018 13:32
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kryptonjohn:

 

If your friend has published research then you can name him. Who is this?

 

Hubbard was unremarkable as a young male weightlifter but after transition to an old female has a world championship medal and was on track to win Commonwealth gold. That makes it look to me that she has acquired an advantage.

 

Val Adams is a very large and powerful woman and one of the all time greats of women's shot put. But a middle of the road male shot putter would beat her easily. Men throw a shot *double* the weight of the women and they throw it further. All it takes is an average male shot putter to transition to female and all women's shot records will be beaten. Is that fair? I don't think so.

 

 

I didn't mention his name because he is retired and is currently undergoing medical treatment so I can't ask his permission. He is well-known in his field and has published many research papers around the world but I don't feel comfortable mentioning him in this context without asking him first. Either take my word for it or don't. I don't care.

 

Edit: I forgot to respond to your second part. Have you taken an average male shot putter and transitioned him to female and seen her beat all women's shot records? Until you have, you are just speculating. Don't try to present it as established fact. It is simply unsubstantiated opinion, like most of the other posts here.

 

 





Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

 


 




kryptonjohn
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  #1992748 10-Apr-2018 13:58
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MikeB4: @tdgeek the pressence of controversy does not eliminate fact.

 

Well here's a fact. The men's 85kg combined world record is 396kg but the women's 90kg combined record is only 283. Gavin Hubbard competed in 105kg, where the WR combined is 437kg)

 

The difference is huge and it is obvious that a male weightlifter transitioning to female gets a massive and unfair advantage.

 

 


kobiak
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  #1992750 10-Apr-2018 13:59
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personally I'm outraged. this should be banned as doping. also i'm in for 3rd olympic/sport category + 4th paralympics with modification

 

 - clean category for no doping, supplements, etc
 - paralympics
 - paralympics with modifications
 - open category for everybody else who wish to compete

 

apologies if I used wrong term "modification", that's just because I don't know how to put it in better words.





helping others at evgenyk.nz




kryptonjohn
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  #1992752 10-Apr-2018 14:06
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Rikkitic:

 

kryptonjohn:

 

If your friend has published research then you can name him. Who is this?

 

Hubbard was unremarkable as a young male weightlifter but after transition to an old female has a world championship medal and was on track to win Commonwealth gold. That makes it look to me that she has acquired an advantage.

 

Val Adams is a very large and powerful woman and one of the all time greats of women's shot put. But a middle of the road male shot putter would beat her easily. Men throw a shot *double* the weight of the women and they throw it further. All it takes is an average male shot putter to transition to female and all women's shot records will be beaten. Is that fair? I don't think so.

 

 

I didn't mention his name because he is retired and is currently undergoing medical treatment so I can't ask his permission. He is well-known in his field and has published many research papers around the world but I don't feel comfortable mentioning him in this context without asking him first. Either take my word for it or don't. I don't care.

 

Edit: I forgot to respond to your second part. Have you taken an average male shot putter and transitioned him to female and seen her beat all women's shot records? Until you have, you are just speculating. Don't try to present it as established fact. It is simply unsubstantiated opinion, like most of the other posts here.

 

 

That sounds questionable to me. You don't need his opinion if he's published it, by definition. If you won't or can't reference this research then it's a bit of a joke you complaining about others posting unsubstantiated opinion while posting your own appeal to authority.

 

The *fact* is that Laurel Hubbard went from mens 105kg where the WR is over 400kg to women's 90kg where the WR is under 300kg. If you don't *feel* that's an advantage then it's my *opinion* is that you are delusional.

 

How do you think it would go if Anthony Joshua transitioned into women's boxing? What about Joseph Parker?

 

 

 

 


tdgeek
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  #1992757 10-Apr-2018 14:12
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MikeB4: @tdgeek the pressence of controversy does not eliminate fact.

 

I agree. is the fact the left or right side of the controversy? Thats what is the unknown. If its clinically proven that reassignment surgery and medication brings the previously male musculature, bone structure and size and density back to near female levels, then there is no two sides to the story or controversy. The there is the equality side built up over tough years as LGBT fights for equality. In sports its not a PC, political fight, its about playing fair, that is what has got lost in the supposed fight for equality. This issue isnt an issue about treating LGBT fairly , but that is what is being put out there  


kryptonjohn
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  #1992758 10-Apr-2018 14:14
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I don't want to knock Laurel Hubbard. It just annoys me that women could well find themselves uncompetitive due to transgender former males being much stronger than them. This has the potential to ruin women's sports. 

 

 


kryptonjohn
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  #1992761 10-Apr-2018 14:19
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Otago University professor in physiology Alison Heather:

 

"I don't know what the solution is, but right now it is not fair on CIS females competing against transgender women." 

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/99434993/professor-of-physiology-says-trans-athlete-has-advantage-in-speed-and-power

 

 


 
 
 

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tdgeek
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  #1992784 10-Apr-2018 15:01
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kryptonjohn:

 

I don't want to knock Laurel Hubbard. It just annoys me that women could well find themselves uncompetitive due to transgender former males being much stronger than them. This has the potential to ruin women's sports. 

 

 

 

 

Renee Richards had that I think, there was a tournament, and almost all the women withdrew. Pro tennis


tdgeek
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  #1992785 10-Apr-2018 15:04
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kryptonjohn:

 

Otago University professor in physiology Alison Heather:

 

"I don't know what the solution is, but right now it is not fair on CIS females competing against transgender women." 

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/99434993/professor-of-physiology-says-trans-athlete-has-advantage-in-speed-and-power

 

 

 

 

No feelings there, just plain fact

 

The theme of this thread is that those who disagree, do so as its unfair to sportswomen. Those that see otherwise, are treating this as a pro vs anti transgender issue, it's not


wratterus
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  #1992786 10-Apr-2018 15:07
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I think that is total BS that 'she' is allowed to compete. It's completely unfair for the real sportswomen and makes the whole thing a bit of a joke. PC gone mad. 


MikeAqua
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  #1992806 10-Apr-2018 15:55
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Rikkitic:

 

Have you taken an average male shot putter and transitioned him to female and seen her beat all women's shot records?

 

 

That is the sort of data that would lend a factual context. 

 

In the meantime I'm not sure I agree with your learned friends opinion.  There is more to ability than size.





Mike


networkn

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  #1992811 10-Apr-2018 15:59
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Rikkitic:

 

Edit: I forgot to respond to your second part. Have you taken an average male shot putter and transitioned him to female and seen her beat all women's shot records? Until you have, you are just speculating. Don't try to present it as established fact. It is simply unsubstantiated opinion, like most of the other posts here.

 

 

Do you know if this has been done ever? There are *very* few transgender athletes how could they conduct these studies in a meaningful way. 

 

Logically, it must be that a MAN who has trained as a weight lifter who then competes as a women would have a different makeup, I would want to see very strong statistics to prove there was no advantage. 

 

 


networkn

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  #1992812 10-Apr-2018 16:01
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Sad news for Laurel Hubbard who announced just this minute that her Elbow injury is career ending. I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy.

 

 


Rikkitic
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  #1992813 10-Apr-2018 16:03
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kryptonjohn:

 

That sounds questionable to me.

 

 

Like I said, I don't care. Take it or leave it.

 

 





Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

 


 


Rikkitic
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  #1992822 10-Apr-2018 16:13
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networkn:

 

Sad news for Laurel Hubbard who announced just this minute that her Elbow injury is career ending. I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy.

 

 

My sympathies to her. 

 

Back to the issue of fairness, how fair is it to allow a 60 kg female to compete against one weighing 80 kg in any sport, or a tall tennis player against a short one, or a long-legged sprinter, etc. etc. Sure, fighters are weighed but this does not extend to all sports. 

 

People are different. Some are bigger than others. Some have longer arms. Some have more determination. If you start trying to even out all the differences, where do you stop? What is the point of competition at all? I doubt the real issue is about transgender athletes. It probably has more to do with atavistic attitudes towards transgender people.

 

  





Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

 


 


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