Warm / Dry / Clean houses - how should it be done in NZ?

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2391 posts

Uber Geek

#3108768 27-Jul-2023 14:04

timbosan:

Skillion roof, something like this - the ceiling is up against the joists, and there is insulation between the ceiling and the building paper and then the corrugated iron. Hence no space for ventilation systems (or for the planned ducted heating, that has to be underfloor)

And good point on the 'straightness' and using Expol :-) Any recommendations on the poly (brands / where to buy etc.)?

if the walls of each room go all the way to the ceiling then just having one ventilation outlet in the house is poor. better than none but you really want it piped to each room.

now if you have ducted heating you can put your ventilation through that system. companies like mitsi can intergrate their ventilation system into their ducted heat pump system. but their is also other ways to do it.

off the top of my head check out insulation warehouse in auckland.

BlargHonk

147 posts

Master Geek

#3108816 27-Jul-2023 16:50

My wife has made the mistake of letting an HRV salesperson inside our house, so now we are being hounded by them. Does anyone have any recommendations of better systems than the HRV? Probably looking at a positive pressure one system as the house is a 60s leaky thing with a steel roof. From my understanding the balanced systems aren't as great for older leaky homes? Are the Simx/Smartvent ones any good? Does anyone know any installers in Chch/Selwyn who know their stuff?

timmmay

20574 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#3108822 27-Jul-2023 17:20

Look at Cleanaire, I think they're in Chch. Not sure if they do positive pressure, but they do quality systems.

TheCross

18 posts

Geek

#3108831 27-Jul-2023 18:04

BlargHonk:

My wife has made the mistake of letting an HRV salesperson inside our house, so now we are being hounded by them. Does anyone have any recommendations of better systems than the HRV? Probably looking at a positive pressure one system as the house is a 60s leaky thing with a steel roof. From my understanding the balanced systems aren't as great for older leaky homes? Are the Simx/Smartvent ones any good? Does anyone know any installers in Chch/Selwyn who know their stuff?

Check out the Stiebel Eltron Heat Recovery Ventilation Systems.

They draw incoming air from outside of the building on the cool side of the house, compared to HRV who draw stale/dirty air from the roof cavity. Depending on what part of the country you live air from outside the building may or may not be more fresh.
The air from kitchen and bathroom extraction is run through a heat exchange that recovers 94% of the energy. The incoming air sits on the other side of the exchange and is warmed if required.
During the summer months, when the air is cooler outside of the house (think night time), it is drawn in the cool the house.
During months either side of winter when air temperatures may be warmer than inside, the house is warmed.

I am also in the process of renovating a 1960's weatherboard and have completed the following work to make a warm and energy efficient home:

Installed a 500 micron ground sheet. I chose 500µm over the standard 250µm to prevent unwanted holes and tears. I work under houses daily (plumber/gas fitter) and I've seen way too much polythene that is damaged from people and objects moving over it. I went pretty hard out, taping every join, wrapped around all of the piles and up the exterior brick skirt. It has made a huge difference to the moisture inside of the house making it much easier to heat, smells better and our health has been better too. Under the house is now usable for storage too. I've constructed a raised wooden platforms around the man holes for better storage and also to prevent damage to the vapour barrier.
Removed linings from bedrooms, installed a good quality building paper (there are not all the same!) with a 20mm air gap, installed 70mm Greenstuff R2.0 Wall pads to maintain 20mm air cavity.
Rebuilt front door from with a groove (thickness of table saw blade) for a push in weather seal.
Removed Insul-Fluf from ceiling and installed Greenstuff R3.6 blanket
Installed Greenstuff R2.9 underfloor insulation.

Dream list as follows:

Replace leaky tile roof this summer. I am contemplating insulating between the roof trusses to deflect the heat at the roof height, thus keeping the ceiling space a more stable temperature. I will either do this or chuck in another R3.6 blanket on top of the ceiling.
Retrofit all timber joinery with double glazing.
Retrofit joinery frames with grove for above weather seal. I'm working on a system that allows you to easily do them in place.
Install Stiebel Eltron HRVS
Install wood burner

I'm sure more will follow as time unfolds, but so far I think this should make a pretty comfortable home.

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#3108839 27-Jul-2023 18:46

TheCross:

Check out the Stiebel Eltron Heat Recovery Ventilation Systems.

They draw incoming air from outside of the building on the cool side of the house, compared to HRV who draw stale/dirty air from the roof cavity. Depending on what part of the country you live air from outside the building may or may not be more fresh.
The air from kitchen and bathroom extraction is run through a heat exchange that recovers 94% of the energy. The incoming air sits on the other side of the exchange and is warmed if required.
During the summer months, when the air is cooler outside of the house (think night time), it is drawn in the cool the house.
During months either side of winter when air temperatures may be warmer than inside, the house is warmed.

waste of money on an older building.

simple issue is you need a fairly air tight house for them to be useful. there is no point installing heat recovery/balanced systems when there is as much air leaking in/out of the house as whats going through the ventilation system. just use a positive pressure.

also a lot of euro systems are ERV and that really needs to be paired with a dehumidifier.

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#3108840 27-Jul-2023 18:52

TheCross:

During months either side of winter when air temperatures may be warmer than inside, the house is warmed.
I am also in the process of renovating a 1960's weatherboard and have completed the following work to make a warm and energy efficient home:

Installed a 500 micron ground sheet. I chose 500µm over the standard 250µm to prevent unwanted holes and tears. I work under houses daily (plumber/gas fitter) and I've seen way too much polythene that is damaged from people and objects moving over it. I went pretty hard out, taping every join, wrapped around all of the piles and up the exterior brick skirt.

no need to be concerned about holes through the ground sheet. taping and sealing up that last 1% is great but its only 1%. remember you still have the legal required ventilation under the house. even if you didn't tape, or go up the sides/posts, your still covering 95% and reducing the moisture by 95%.

more important to have drainage so you don't end up with puddles of water sitting under there.

BlargHonk

147 posts

Master Geek

#3108856 27-Jul-2023 19:24

Yeah I have heard Balanced aren't great for older leaky homes.

We already have the ground sheet installed, good underfloor and double layer ceiling insulation (but no wall insulation). I have draft stopped the worst of the drafty windows and doors. The wood burner and heat pump help keep it from getting too cold, but we have to use the window vac on the cold mornings in winter. Hoping a positive pressure system might help. Do any of them do heat transfer for the fire in the same system?

How are you managing to cut in the groove for the weather seal in the doors/windows? I have just been using the stick on stuff

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timbosan

2159 posts

Uber Geek

#3108866 27-Jul-2023 19:50

TheCross:.

Rebuilt front door from with a groove (thickness of table saw blade) for a push in weather seal.

When we had the rot removed (window sills, front door frame, etc.) we had the RotDoctor install a weather seal around the front door, much like the one on the double glazing we had done. Looks like this:

This sits on the outside of the door which pushes up hard against the seal, makes a major difference. I tried the "stick on from Bunnings" approach but it never worked well. Combined with a weather seal on the bottom of the door I have reduced the draft about 90%.

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#3108867 27-Jul-2023 20:03

BlargHonk: Hoping a positive pressure system might help. Do any of them do heat transfer for the fire in the same system?

yes there is a few.

also i would recommend a summer kit. finding one with a decent auto changeover summer kit is a bit harder.

Wheelbarrow01

1723 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Chorus

#3108897 27-Jul-2023 23:57

timbosan:

That's really interesting - I went for retrofit and kept the wooden frames, mind you I am in Auckland so no where near as cold (except last night it got down to 7), we get condensation on the OUTSIDE when very cold, but never on the inside. I read somewhere (Scott Brown??) that double glazed aluminum windows have the same R rating a single glazed wood.

And thanks for the info about the ground sheet, gives me more drive to get it done ASAP, unfortunately the previous owners used he underneath of the house as a dumping ground so I need to clear it out first. I assume from your reply you didn't do this yourself? I am keen to hear tips from people who have done it themselves.

And yeah, get rid of the foil, it's an accident waiting to happen.

Yes my aluminium window frames do get very cold to the touch in winter, and up until now the drip channels at the bottom stayed wet in most rooms for 4-5 months of the year. Without regular cleaning and clearing of the drain holes they have been a breeding ground for mold, but they are pretty much dry for the past week.

I thought about laying the ground sheet myself, but I'm not as bendy as I used to be (mid 40's with ongoing back issues). I was happy to pay someone to do it quickly and efficiently - it only took them about 2 hours, but it likely would have taken me days to crawl around under there. There was a small amount of detritus under there (mostly just concrete rubble) - they piled it all in one corner and securely laid the ground sheet over the top of it.

I've certainly heard about the dangers of removing foil while the power is on. The same company that did the ground sheet quoted me just over $2k to install the Mammoth underfloor insulation and that included the cost of removing the foil first. It's the only quote I've got so far, so I'm not sure if that is competitive or not (circa 100M2).

TheCross

18 posts

Geek

#3108909 28-Jul-2023 06:48

tweake:

TheCross:

Check out the Stiebel Eltron Heat Recovery Ventilation Systems.

They draw incoming air from outside of the building on the cool side of the house, compared to HRV who draw stale/dirty air from the roof cavity. Depending on what part of the country you live air from outside the building may or may not be more fresh.
The air from kitchen and bathroom extraction is run through a heat exchange that recovers 94% of the energy. The incoming air sits on the other side of the exchange and is warmed if required.
During the summer months, when the air is cooler outside of the house (think night time), it is drawn in the cool the house.
During months either side of winter when air temperatures may be warmer than inside, the house is warmed.

waste of money on an older building.

simple issue is you need a fairly air tight house for them to be useful. there is no point installing heat recovery/balanced systems when there is as much air leaking in/out of the house as whats going through the ventilation system. just use a positive pressure.

also a lot of euro systems are ERV and that really needs to be paired with a dehumidifier.

A fair point. I'll stick with the HRV that is already installed then. Has anybody has experience with the HRV heat transfer kits?

TheCross

18 posts

Geek

#3108914 28-Jul-2023 07:15

BlargHonk:

How are you managing to cut in the groove for the weather seal in the doors/windows? I have just been using the stick on stuff

Track saw and multitool. Im planning to make up a right angle steel jig for the multitool to keep the opening straight and consistent width. It is slow work, but much better outcome compared to the stick on seals and I'm hoping the jig will help out. I'll post picks once I've got a good system in place.

The other alternative which is how the retrofit companies do it, is a grooved timber beading with a seal pushed into it that is pinned to the around the inside of the frame. It changes the visual appearance of the windows, which was not for me.

timbosan

2159 posts

Uber Geek

#3108947 28-Jul-2023 08:49

TheCross:

BlargHonk:

How are you managing to cut in the groove for the weather seal in the doors/windows? I have just been using the stick on stuff

Track saw and multitool. Im planning to make up a right angle steel jig for the multitool to keep the opening straight and consistent width. It is slow work, but much better outcome compared to the stick on seals and I'm hoping the jig will help out. I'll post picks once I've got a good system in place.

The other alternative which is how the retrofit companies do it, is a grooved timber beading with a seal pushed into it that is pinned to the around the inside of the frame. It changes the visual appearance of the windows, which was not for me.

That's what I have - see picture above. And yes, you cannot really tell from the closeup but there is new timer around the sides and top, which does make the doorframe look 'smaller' - it also means the keyhole is very close to the new timber, not something I had thought of!

timbosan

2159 posts

Uber Geek

#3109647 29-Jul-2023 18:24

So, tday was the day to start cleaning out all the crap under the house (heads up - it was here when we moved in, so none is mine!).

O. M. G. I amazing how much stuff can be under a house! I found a Stop Sign, old external stairs, a huse amount of timber, old bicycle wheel, and a whole lot of junk. But I did get a clear look at the 'front' of the house, an addition which has no underfloor insulation.

I think I can get a ground sheet under there, might not be taped well though. Not sure on getting insulation done though. I thought about trying to lever up Expol, even if there are gaps its better than none, right? Any other suggestions for such a low area?

This is the 'front' of the house:

Best find so far!

gzt

17104 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3109648 29-Jul-2023 18:39

Expol polystyrene is a bit pita especially for old houses with no regular sizing. Been there. Never again. Staple in place foil batt blanket sandwich thing is the way to go.

Unfortunately people die in those tight spaces combined with electricity. It's not something to do lightly.

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