Electric Vehicle: Will you buy one

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › Electric Vehicle: Will you buy one - if not why not?

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2619 posts

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#1823545 17-Jul-2017 03:03

And locally, from http://www.unison.co.nz/tell-me-about/electricity/electric-vehicle-charging/going-electric/nz-electric-vehicle-options

Battery Performance

Batteries in electric vehicles will lose a small proportion of their capacity over time. A car’s current battery capacity can be seen as a number of bars (like a fuel gauge) on the dashboard or in some cases via an app.

The battery pack is expected to retain 70% to 80% of its capacity after 10 years but its actual lifespan depends on several factors – better capacity can be retained by avoiding the car being left too long with a high or low level of charge, minimising exposure to hot temperatures (particularly over 30°C), and if regularly fast-charging (more than once a week), only charging the battery to 80%. There are reports of electric vehicles traveling over 200,000km on the original battery with no problems.

Eventually the battery will need replacement. However unlike the battery in a mobile phone EV battery packs are made up of multiple individually controlled modules (sets of cells). The capacity of the battery set will slowly reduce and eventually drop to an unacceptable driving range. It can then be recycled or reused. For example Nissan has just announced its “xStorage’ product, reusing batteries from Leaf vehicles for home energy storage.

A new battery, depending on its size, presently costs at least $5,000 to $10,000, but prices are falling. Also as battery technology improves, you may be able to buy a battery with more capacity than the car initially came with. You may also need to only replace individual dead cells, at a lower cost than a full replacement.

dickytim

2514 posts

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#1823553 17-Jul-2017 06:30

If Mazda made a CX-5 in electric that had a range of 6-800km and by the time you considered less running costs vs. higher repayments was neutral then I would consider this, the problem I have is that I am not inspired by the current offerings and I simply can't afford them.

PhantomNVD

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#1823715 17-Jul-2017 11:53

kiwirock:
The question I have based on those above figures, does it still consume the energy needed as if it was charging a full 12 bars in order to reach the 70% mark? Therefore less efficient. Or does it charge 30% quicker (use 30% less energy to charge)?

That would break the laws of physics 😉

It would have a lower battery capacity, say 15-18KWh instead of 24KWh so would reach its adjusted ‘full’ capacity sooner, but charge at the same rate. So it’s default of (roughly) 2KWh/hour charging on 10A would get the same 2KWh into the battery (since it’s not the _charger_ that’s degrading) but 18/2=6 but 24/2=12... so 6 hours to reach the older batteries max of18KWh (roughly) but the same 6 hours to reach the new batteries18KWh (and more to reach the 24KWh max).

In all of this is didn’t mention that the last 20% charges much slower than the first 80% due to “potential difference” in the charge voltage, but that would be a constant for both batteries so wasn’t relevant.

In ICE terms, the fuel goes in at the same rate but your ‘tank’ size is slowly shrinking...

MarkH67

518 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1823723 17-Jul-2017 12:13

dickytim:

If Mazda made a CX-5 in electric that had a range of 6-800km and by the time you considered less running costs vs. higher repayments was neutral then I would consider this, the problem I have is that I am not inspired by the current offerings and I simply can't afford them.

I don't think that is going to be too hard, you might have to wait for 4-5 years though. Pretty much all the major car manufacturers are spending big money to develop electric cars and battery manufacturers are spending heaps to develop better batteries. The batteries will get better and cheaper and there will be a very large range of electric cars available.

Personally I'm keen on seeing some serious work on developing solid state batteries, I like the idea of safer batteries (no liquid electrolyte so much less chance of a 'vent with flame' situation) which last a lot longer - think 20 years time having over 95% of your original battery capacity!

Tesla is already showing the world how well electric cars can perform, over time much cheaper cars will get the sort of range the top Teslas currently get.

frankv

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#1823925 17-Jul-2017 16:39

MarkH67:

Of course there will be a big change as the batteries get cheaper, which will happen as the production numbers for them drastically rise with all the new cars being built.

There will also be a big change as battery technology changes to allow faster charging; if it only takes 2 minutes to charge your battery you won't care particularly if it only has 200km range.

MikeAqua

7782 posts

Uber Geek

#1823926 17-Jul-2017 16:41

Linuxluver:

my hope we can stop using diesel for transport on public roads because it fouls our air and makes us ill.

We still need diesel powered trucks to deliver shiny new EVs to car dealerships so people can buy them. Not to mention transport of parts used in their fabrication.

And we still need heavy fuel oil (which is dirtier than diesel) to deliver them to ports.

I could imagine a future where it feasible to have cities are ICEV free. But ICEV free long-haul is a pipe dream at the moment.

Mike

MarkH67

518 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1823937 17-Jul-2017 17:13

frankv:

There will also be a big change as battery technology changes to allow faster charging; if it only takes 2 minutes to charge your battery you won't care particularly if it only has 200km range.

Fast charging will get faster but what you are suggesting just isn't feasible because - physics!

Let's take a 30kWh battery capable of powering a car for 200km of travel - to charge that battery in 2 minutes would require 3,750A at 240V. That sort of amperage is going to melt some stuff. If we upped the voltage to lower the amperage then it would still be too much - 1,125A at 800V is still problematic. Trying to push the voltage super high would cause other problems because high enough voltage brings in other dangers.

The easiest solution is to push up the range to 800+ kilometres and instead of trying to push a huge amount of power in 2 minutes you could drive for long enough that you would welcome a good half hour break, even then you wouldn't need to fully charge the car - just put a bit more in to comfortably complete your journey. Also you would find that 99% of the journeys wouldn't need any charging and you could leave it until overnight to recharge, overnight would mean that you could recharge during off-peak hours which would make things much easier for our power grid.

Just think about how many times a year that you drive for more than 800km in one day!

For me it would be rare to travel over 800km for the entire return trip, most of the time I could charge at home and then recharge when I get back again after my trip. On a long trip like maybe a trip around the South Island for a couple of weeks (I did this last November) then I could utilise fast chargers as needed but mostly would just need destination chargers at places that I stayed overnight at. My entire 2 week trip was only around 2,400km which equates to only 3 full charges of a vehicle capable of 800km, I could easily plan such a trip with only overnight charging needed if I was in a car that had 800km range.

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morrisk

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#1824064 17-Jul-2017 21:15

Hope someone in this forum may have information on charging an EV in an apartment garage.

The garage is multistories and has several power outlets at each level - not used often that I have seen and probably designed for plugging in a vacuum cleaner or similar.

So I could plug my EV into this for an overnight slow charge. The power would be paid by the Body Corporate and that would be the issue. BC is OK with the odd use of a vacuum cleaner but not regular charging of your EV.

Has anyone seen a solution that would allow some way of metering the amount used thus allowing the owner of the EV to reimburse the BC for the power they use from the common property power outlet?

PhantomNVD

2619 posts

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#1824115 18-Jul-2017 01:40

MarkH67:
frankv:

There will also be a big change as battery technology changes to allow faster charging; if it only takes 2 minutes to charge your battery you won't care particularly if it only has 200km range.

Fast charging will get faster but what you are suggesting just isn't feasible because - physics!

Let's take a 30kWh battery capable of powering a car for 200km of travel - to charge that battery in 2 minutes would require 3,750A at 240V. That sort of amperage is going to melt some stuff. If we upped the voltage to lower the amperage then it would still be too much - 1,125A at 800V is still problematic. Trying to push the voltage super high would cause other problems because high enough voltage brings in other dangers.

They working on it now :)

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1110470_israeli-firm-storedot-claims-battery-with-5-minute-charging-time

dickytim

2514 posts

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#1824119 18-Jul-2017 05:52

morrisk:

Hope someone in this forum may have information on charging an EV in an apartment garage.

The garage is multistories and has several power outlets at each level - not used often that I have seen and probably designed for plugging in a vacuum cleaner or similar.

So I could plug my EV into this for an overnight slow charge. The power would be paid by the Body Corporate and that would be the issue. BC is OK with the odd use of a vacuum cleaner but not regular charging of your EV.

Has anyone seen a solution that would allow some way of metering the amount used thus allowing the owner of the EV to reimburse the BC for the power they use from the common property power outlet?

Do you think the BC would put in some sort of metered charging station? Is there a business out there that installs something like that? The meter is charged to the user and the body corp reimbursed?

MikeAqua

7782 posts

Uber Geek

#1824189 18-Jul-2017 09:27

MarkH67:

The easiest solution is to push up the range to 800+ kilometres and instead of trying to push a huge amount of power in 2 minutes you could drive for long enough that you would welcome a good half hour break ...

[snip]

Just think about how many times a year that you drive for more than 800km in one day!

Enthalpy density of batteries ... Every battery type has a maximum theoretical energy output per kg of reagents. None of them are very encouraging in a mobile application. We need better tech and/or to make the parts of the cars that aren't battery or motorcars much, much lighter.

For stationary use I think the battery technology is looking really good, even in installations approaching grid scale.

I don't drive 800km in day very often but when I want to, I want to. I also want to do it in my own car. 600km towing in day would be a several times per year occurrence.

Our record is Nelson to Dome Valley (just N of Auckland) towing a caravan with a couple of kayaks on the roof-rack (more drag than K-road). Filled up in Picton because the Ferry was running late so we had time. Next stop was Tokoroa to top off the tank (1/4 left) and change drivers.

Try that in an EV ...

Mike

tripper1000

1617 posts

Uber Geek

#1824220 18-Jul-2017 09:59

Instant charging and 800km range is old fossil fuel thinking. It's like saying you want to refuel your horseless carriage with horse food.

With an EV you park your car in a fuel station every night (your garage). Your car refuels while you sleep, so it doesn't matter if it takes 10 minutes or 8 hours.

Because your EV refuels daily, it only needs 1 days range - no normal person drives 800 kms daily. Most people once presented with the choice of 800km batteries or 300km batteries will opt for 300km batteries because they won't be able to justify the extra cost simply to save 20 or 40 minutes on an annual holiday journey.

For the occasional long trip to locations with no fast chargers on the way, (or if you have an unusually long commute) they make EV's with a REX - Range EXtender petrol powered generator. (Volt, i300 etc).

Sure apartments don't yet have power outlets in the parking areas, but that is simply because these is not yet demand. Once people demand it, it will be supplied.

Once humans trust autonomous cars sufficiently, your car will be able to take it self to a charging station to recharge while you are at work. It will also enable people to cut down on the number of cars they own because once you arrive at work/the shops your car will take itself home to ferry the kids/spouse around or alternatively go Uber-ing when you don't need it.

Batman

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#1824305 18-Jul-2017 12:04

Except that if you go on your annual journey, then so would 1 million others. Or 10 million if you are from a metropolis. The queue to charge would be ... Sorry beyond my math ability.

I'm sure they will come up with something ...

Linuxluver

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#1824314 18-Jul-2017 12:24

dickytim:

If Mazda made a CX-5 in electric that had a range of 6-800km and by the time you considered less running costs vs. higher repayments was neutral then I would consider this, the problem I have is that I am not inspired by the current offerings and I simply can't afford them.

People considering EVs are increasingly using the "Bladder test".

If the range of their bladder is less than the range of the car, then the car is adequate. :-)

No point having 600km range of you have to stop every 150km (two hours of NZ highway driving) for a toilet stop. You may as well plug the car in for 15 mins...and buy a cheaper one that can charge fast. :-)

Many people who have bought the 30kWh LEAF wondering if the nominal 170km (highway) / 220km (city) was good enough.....only to find they need to stop long before the car does. :-)

That includes me.

James Cooke - a Tesla Model S owner in the UK who makes a daily YouTube video about EVs observed the same thing this week when travelling with Jasper, his 4 year old. He may have 400km range.....but Jasper's range is barely 100km before he needs to get out of car for a walk. Easily enough time to charge up. :-)
Not everyone is a chlidless, slightly dehydrated 20-something with an iron bladder. :-)

_____________________________________________________________________

I've been on Geekzone over 16 years..... Time flies....

MarkH67

518 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1824317 18-Jul-2017 12:27

Batman: Except that if you go on your annual journey, then so would 1 million others. Or 10 million if you are from a metropolis. The queue to charge would be ... Sorry beyond my math ability.

I'm sure they will come up with something ...

That sounds like one of the easiest problems in the world to solve.

Simply park in a parking garage that has a charging point for every parking space, start charging and wonder off to have lunch. If a parking garage has 1,000 spaces then I'm talking about there being 1,000 charging points - this garage would be attached to a large mall with a variety of shops including a range of different food outlets.

If everyone was driving an electric car then how would such a thing NOT happen?

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