EV (electric vehicle) News & Discussion

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#2626648 25-Dec-2020 10:06

Technofreak: Here's and interesting, if a little controversial, commentary on Tesla's future.

https://youtu.be/rmJAeKLVVTY

Pretty much par for the course for self proclaimed 'Auto Expert' John Cadogan. Commentary full of derogatory nicknames and very much focussed around the Aussie car market which of course has a historical preference for "big Aussie 6s and V8s' and more recently diesel utes due to their native carmakers going belly up. The long travel distances that Aussies romantically claim to be essential to their day to day existence are a challenge to current EV range and hence the uptake of EVs is slower across the ditch than in most other Western countries. Once EV range reaches what Aussies find acceptable they are well placed to charge from their own PV generation though judging by the popularity of roof top installations there.

Cardogan also fails to acknowledge that Tesla has fared very well against the incumbant ICE carmakers who generally have seen sales decline in the past years as Tesla and other EV models increase sales. Tesla aren't going anywhere fast and their current performance is very much in line with where Elon Musk's planned trajectory visualised. Tesla is more than anyone driving the move towards EV dominance, right on cue: https://waitbutwhy.com/2015/06/how-tesla-will-change-your-life.html

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

Technofreak

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#2626660 25-Dec-2020 10:46

kingdragonfly:
Technofreak: Here's and interesting, if a little controversial, commentary on Tesla's future.

https://youtu.be/rmJAeKLVVTY

Pros: he abuses everyone. No one is unscathed

He's correct that Tesla is often viewed with rose-coluored glasses by American politicans and reporters. I don't know any other company that gets the "boys will be boys" treatment as much as Tesla.

On many points, I agree with him on Musk. Not a nice person.

Cons: Broadly Australians are not pro-EV, because it's a big country, and there's a lot of range anxiety.

More pronounced than even the US, there seems to be a love of big V8 cars. Australians love of trucks seems to be on par with the general US attitude.

Most of the old white men in the Australian government just doesn't care about climate change. They actually proposes to tax EVs, where many countries were at some time subsidizing it.

However regarding Tesla, he's assuming that Tesla will not adapt, stay static. That's wrong. Just look at Tesla making their bodies and wiring less complex without fanfare.

Also he's ignored Tesla heavy emphasis on automation, which I think is a good thing, even without COVID.

Tesla is also much more "vertically integrated", making most of the components themselves, and building huge battery plants.

Off subject, the reason SpaceX is so much cheaper than everyone else is because SpaceX don't depend on a long-line of middle-men suppliers, each marking up the price as it travels through the supply chain.

Lastly, we wraps the self-driving component into critique as though it was a bad thing. I'd think self-driving would be great on the Eyre Highway.

Off subject, the lack of Tesla dealers is both a plus and a minus. I know I won't own a Tesla until I know my provincial city has someone to support it.

Firstly I think JC is just an opinionated Aussie and you take his commentary as you see fit.

He wasn't being anti EV he was saying Tesla's future is downhill. Until now they have had no real competition in the EV market but that is about to change with many large motor vehicle manufactures about to enter the market. Manufacturers that already build better quality vehicles than Tesla, manufacturers who already have a very good dealer/support network, manufacturers who already have an established customer base. His contention is these manufacturers will eat Tesla's lunch.

He wasn't anti self drive, he was taking aim at Elon's marketing of a feature that wasn't really what Tesla was selling. Plus the fact that people had been killed using the Tesla self drive technology and if it had been any other manfacturer people would have been up in arms about a feature that didn't live up to its hype.

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kingdragonfly

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#2626674 25-Dec-2020 11:21

I think any criticism of self-driving cars has to be this: how does it safety record compare to humans?

There's incredible amounts of vehicular carnage daily that any improvement would be welcome.

It seems the pace of AI is increasing. It took decades before AI could beat a grand-master chess player or give directions between two places.

Now games like "Go" and "Jeopardy" are able to beat master players; They are considerably harder for AIs than chess. in Go, the number of moves can be more than the number of atoms in the universe. In Jeopardy, there's vagueness in human language

I welcome self-driving cars, and again we should always compare it to how well people do the same task.

If doctors looking at medical tests predicted cancer correctly 80% of the time, but AI did it 85% correctly, I wouldn't say let's not use AI because it's not 100% accurate.

Linuxluver

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#2626736 25-Dec-2020 18:24

afe66:

@linuxluver
Is the charging port a hassle as mentioned on YouTube?

I must admit, that if my 2014 leaf died/crashed id look at the MG.

How does the boot feel relative to Leaf?

One stop to drive Dunedin to Wanaka or better is my range requirements for next ev..

Not as exciting a tesla but so much cheaper...
I see there is another MG in uk with slightly longer range.

I don't have any issues with the charge port. It's fine.

The boot is about the same as a LEAF.

One stop from Dunedin to Wanaka would be easy.

Definitely cheaper and more comfortable. You sit up straight, like in the LEAF. The glass roof is great. The battery is liquid cooled. The MG Pilot with lane keep assist is actually pretty good. Especially on long drives.

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alasta

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#2626737 25-Dec-2020 18:44

I agree with John Cardogan in regards to Telsa.

Tesla appear to use the same design philosophy as the computer industry, which is fine if you're someone who likes to tinker with computers as a hobby, but the average car buyer doesn't want their car to suffer from the same erratic behaviour and poor reliability that computers are known for.

If I had to choose between a Tesla versus a Hyundai Kona electric then I would go with the Hyundai without a moment's hesitation because they have a long history of making products that are reliable and of high quality.

Linuxluver

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#2626740 25-Dec-2020 18:51

alasta:
I agree with John Cardogan in regards to Telsa.

Tesla appear to use the same design philosophy as the computer industry, which is fine if you're someone who likes to tinker with computers as a hobby, but the average car buyer doesn't want their car to suffer from the same erratic behaviour and poor reliability that computers are known for.

If I had to choose between a Tesla versus a Hyundai Kona electric then I would go with the Hyundai without a moment's hesitation because they have a long history of making products that are reliable and of high quality.

The vast majority who actually own Teslas would roll their eyes.......

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Technofreak

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#2626759 25-Dec-2020 21:36

Linuxluver:
alasta:

I agree with John Cardogan in regards to Telsa.

Tesla appear to use the same design philosophy as the computer industry, which is fine if you're someone who likes to tinker with computers as a hobby, but the average car buyer doesn't want their car to suffer from the same erratic behaviour and poor reliability that computers are known for.

If I had to choose between a Tesla versus a Hyundai Kona electric then I would go with the Hyundai without a moment's hesitation because they have a long history of making products that are reliable and of high quality.

The vast majority who actually own Teslas would roll their eyes.......

John Cadogan would agree, however his reasons as to why wouldn't flatter Tesla owners. 😈

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kingdragonfly

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#2626774 26-Dec-2020 08:30

See Veblen good

"A Veblen good is a type of luxury good for which the demand for a good increases as the price increases, in apparent contradiction of the law of demand..."

"The Veblen effect is one of a family of theoretical anomalies in the general law of demand in microeconomics. Related effects include:

The snob effect: expressed preference for goods because they are different from those commonly preferred; in other words, for consumers who want to use exclusive products, price is quality.
The common law of business balance: low price of a good indicates that the producer may have compromised quality, that is, "you get what you pay for".
The hot-hand fallacy: stock buyers have fallen prey to the fallacy that previous price increases suggest future price increases. Other rationales for buying a high-priced stock are that previous buyers who bid up the price are proof of the issue's quality"

gzt

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#2626777 26-Dec-2020 08:57

Interview with Toyota's hydrogen vehicle chief:

https://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2020/05/qa-toyotas-hydrogen-chief-jackie-birdsall/

No surprises there. The numbers are very small with increases planned.

gzt

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#2626792 26-Dec-2020 09:33

Green energy analyst says there is massive pro-hydrogen dishonest lobbying from fossil fuel industries claiming they will sequester the CO2 when in reality that process is uneconomic and not feasible:

CleanTechnica reported on a major study out of Europe which shows clearly where the impetus is coming from: fossil fuel industry lobbying and PR efforts. This is clear to every rational observer of the effort. Gas utilities such as Fortis in BC and SGN in Scotland are trying desperately to find a reason to continue to exist. Fossil fuel companies want to sell more and more fossil-fuel sourced hydrogen with the pretense that the massive CO2 emissions related to it will be captured and sequestered, a model known as ‘blue hydrogen’.

https://cleantechnica.com/2020/12/23/latest-hydrogen-economy-round-is-hype-but-there-is-a-place-for-hydrogen/amp/

kingdragonfly

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#2626819 26-Dec-2020 11:24

Good thread on fusion energy.

https://www.reddit.com/r/fusion/comments/dpdef8/have_daniel_jassbys_fusion_critiques_been/

Personally I think increased energy storage research gives more bang for the buck short term.

If I were a billionaire philanthropist, I'd like look at windmills on a barge. For energy storage, and counteract tipping, I'd use giant concrete blocks lifting/dropping from a on-deck generator / motor.

Whole thing would be built on shore.

Obraik

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#2626886 26-Dec-2020 12:24

alasta:

I agree with John Cardogan in regards to Telsa.

Tesla appear to use the same design philosophy as the computer industry, which is fine if you're someone who likes to tinker with computers as a hobby, but the average car buyer doesn't want their car to suffer from the same erratic behaviour and poor reliability that computers are known for.

If I had to choose between a Tesla versus a Hyundai Kona electric then I would go with the Hyundai without a moment's hesitation because they have a long history of making products that are reliable and of high quality.

Each to their own. I'd rather own the car with the better range, better performance, better storage and an evolving list of features for not much difference in price 🤷🏻‍♂️

Looking to buy a Tesla? Use my referral link and we both get credits

kingdragonfly

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#2627559 29-Dec-2020 07:44

I know that petrol and diesel cars burst into flame all the time. My friend used to carry a fire extinguisher in his car, and before long a stranger's car burst into flames in front of him.

It's the door handles design I find concerning.

Washington Post: A Tesla Model S erupted ‘like a flamethrower.’ It renewed old safety concerns about the trailblazing sedans.

The firefighter told the driver he was lucky he got out when he did, after the car’s motorized door handles retracted

The combustion of Ahmad’s car is one of a growing number of fire incidents involving older Tesla Model S and X vehicles that experts say are related to the battery, raising questions about the safety and durability of electric vehicles as they age. ...The agency opened an investigation last year into alleged battery defects that could cause fires in older Tesla sedans and SUVs.

...A lawsuit and defect petition that spurred the NHTSA probe allege Tesla manipulated its battery software in older model cars to reduce the risk of fire, lowering the range and lengthening charging times as it sought to address an undisclosed defect. The attorney filing suit on behalf of Tesla owners last year cited an “alarming number of car fires” that appeared to be spontaneous. Since the agency agreed to look into the issue last year, little more has been disclosed about the status of the probe.

Tesla has argued its cars are 10 times less likely to catch fire than gasoline vehicles ... Tesla said in 2018 that its vehicles had five fires per billion miles traveled, vs. 55 fires per billion miles traveled in the United States.

...Experts say electric cars catch fire at a similar rate to gas cars, if not less often. But the duration and intensity of the fires, fueled by chemicals and the extreme heat buildup in lithium-ion battery systems, can make the fires in electric cars harder to put out.

As a report prepared for NHTSA suggests, electric vehicle fires can result from a chain reaction of events where, for example, a defect causes overheating in a single cell. Through that vector, the heat can ignite highly flammable materials surrounding the source and spread to the rest of the battery, eventually spiraling out of control as temperature and pressure rise unabated, a process known as “thermal runaway.” But the issue may not be inherent to batteries, but rather the fact that the current crop of electric vehicles are relatively new to market and uniform safety standards have yet to be adopted, research has said.

Tesla has come under particular scrutiny over concerns its computerized cars made emergency responses and investigations more difficult, with features such as retracting door handles that proved an impediment to first responders...

The NHTSA defect petition that led to the probe cited alleged “high-voltage battery fires that are not related to collision or impact damage to the battery pack.” It focused on Model S and X vehicles from model years 2012 through 2019 and homed in on their battery management systems, including thermal management and charging control, NHTSA said.

One of the most gruesome incidents involving the Model S was the case of driver Omar Awan, who was trapped in a burning car in South Florida in 2019 after the car’s electronic door handles failed to extend following a fiery crash, his family said. The man’s family blamed that design feature in a wrongful-death lawsuit, saying his death was caused by the design features rather than the crash itself....

kingdragonfly

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#2627622 29-Dec-2020 10:48

Caradvice.com.au: Tesla sued for wrongful death, door handles blamed

...The Model S’s flush door handles automatically pop out when the car’s key fob is detected nearby. If there’s an issue with the key’s battery, Tesla advises you to position your key near the base of the passenger-side windshield wiper and then press the front door handle.

There isn’t, however, a cable release to open the doors from the outside like there is inside the cabin....

...Automotive News also cited a Wired story from last year, where a former executive said Tesla CEO Elon Musk insisted on flush door handles even though it “was unanimous among the executive staff that the complex door handle idea was crazy”.

The executive was also quoted as saying the door handles “required incredibly complicated engineering, and it solved a problem that no one else thought was actually a problem. But no matter how forcefully executives objected, Musk wouldn’t yield”....

afe66

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#2627679 29-Dec-2020 11:32

John Cardogan drives a Hyundai Konos EV ...

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