Auckland Transport: Hop & Snapper. Whats the real issue

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Master Geek

#676072 23-Aug-2012 18:06

+1 Linuxluver (and don't forget CCO TRUSTS - they have another set of rules - not relevant for this debate)

jonherries

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#676142 23-Aug-2012 21:22

Monthly Discovery Pass too. They talk about integrated ticketing, but it already exists, it's just not convoluted and unnecessarily technological enough for them. I walk onto a bus, train, or ferry in Auckland, wave the card at the driver/conductor, and sit down. No tagging on, tagging off, fumbling for cash, or anything like that.

I think there are a number of shortcomings with a paper-based integrated ticketing, hence an electronic system is not only viable but probably essential i.e.:

- cash management for the providers (cash boxes, security, audit etc)
- cash management for the customer (eftpos process time - can you imagine the bus driver swiping your eftpos card, alternative is carrying cash - $10-20)
- knowing that you will be traveling all day - you can only benefit from this if ou make the choice at the beginning of the day that you will be making enough journeys at x+y+z to be worth buying the ticket.
- measuring the profitability of the cards - price it too low, you lose money, price it too high you lose money.
- additional overheads of a manual paper based system, which are passed off as higher prices (maybe this is a bit dubious)

Hence although you are probably happy with this paper solution, there could possibly be some benefits for you as a customer if there was to be an electronic solution...

Jon

Kyanar

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#676151 23-Aug-2012 22:15

jonherries:
Monthly Discovery Pass too. They talk about integrated ticketing, but it already exists, it's just not convoluted and unnecessarily technological enough for them. I walk onto a bus, train, or ferry in Auckland, wave the card at the driver/conductor, and sit down. No tagging on, tagging off, fumbling for cash, or anything like that.

I think there are a number of shortcomings with a paper-based integrated ticketing, hence an electronic system is not only viable but probably essential i.e.:

- cash management for the providers (cash boxes, security, audit etc)
- cash management for the customer (eftpos process time - can you imagine the bus driver swiping your eftpos card, alternative is carrying cash - $10-20)
- knowing that you will be traveling all day - you can only benefit from this if ou make the choice at the beginning of the day that you will be making enough journeys at x+y+z to be worth buying the ticket.
- measuring the profitability of the cards - price it too low, you lose money, price it too high you lose money.
- additional overheads of a manual paper based system, which are passed off as higher prices (maybe this is a bit dubious)

Hence although you are probably happy with this paper solution, there could possibly be some benefits for you as a customer if there was to be an electronic solution...

Jon

You know, not one single one of your 'issues' actually applies to a monthly discovery pass. You can't buy them on a bus anyway (so no cash management issues), there are no "additional overheads" (and even for daily passes, I can't see how this is an issue).

The other problem is that you're still proposing that I as a passenger should give up a more convenient system in favour of a new electronic tagging system. To be honest, the HOP system annoys me. Random fares, constant crashing, ridiculously laggy reporting (up to a month behind!) and all kinds of irritation. Whereas now I just wave a card at the driver as I wander past.

Linuxluver

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#676250 24-Aug-2012 09:08

spacedog:
Anyways, regardless of party affiliation, this whole affair has been mismanaged and wasteful and someone, or some group, ought to be served up in the harsh light of day of the court of public opinion.

I don't have much faith in the court of public opinion at the moment. It is lead by the nose by the right-wing Irish multi-national that owns APN and the right-wing Australian multi-national that owns Fairfax. Fairfax's largest shareholder is Gina Rinehart, the mining billionaire, who wants seats on the Board while REFUSING to sign a declaration she won't interfere with editorial content. She wants the media she owns to promote mining...and ignore any negative consequences of mining. She thinks climate change is a lie...and so on. Ignorant redneck billionaire rampant in a media china shop.

Not much hope for informed public opinion, I'm afraid. You have to do your own homework from source documents...and most people these days can't even read them because they lack the background to understand what they are looking at.

The only Kiwi-owned 'mass' media are TVNZ and Radio NZ and this government is doing the best to choke the life out of them for the benefit of their mates at Mediaworks and Sky (again...both foreign-owned).

RNZ hasn't had a funding increase in 3 years. The government shut down completely TVNZ7...who were doing a reasonably good job of making serious public affairs programming for people who want to know what's really going on. TVNZ had its public service charter torn up and shat upon. They are now there ONLY to make money.

You can only be 'even-handed' about party affiliation if you don't know who has been doing all these terrible things.

It's the National Party. They really should be called the "Multi-National 1% Farmer Party" because that is who they really look after.

That's about as even-handed as you can be with an obviously guilty party. Name and shame.

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spacedog

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#676268 24-Aug-2012 09:34

Linuxluver:
spacedog:
Anyways, regardless of party affiliation, this whole affair has been mismanaged and wasteful and someone, or some group, ought to be served up in the harsh light of day of the court of public opinion.

I don't have much faith in the court of public opinion at the moment. It is lead by the nose by the right-......

It's the National Party. They really should be called the "Multi-National 1% Farmer Party" because that is who they really look after.

That's about as even-handed as you can be with an obviously guilty party. Name and shame.

Yes, I had a momentary lapse of reason and went back to the happy place in my head where I thought hard-journalism exists in New Zealand. Then I woke up and realized that's why I'm posting here....

I'm truly non-party affiliated as I only moved to NZ 12 years ago so I truly had no pre-formed opinions about any political parties. To be fair, I think National has been engaged in cronyism and management incompetence. I think Labour has also engaged in cronyism to a lesser degree, but management incompetence to a higher degree.

Anyways, I'll stop derailing this thread with ventilations about how messed up this whole situation is and leave the rest of the posters to debate the technical aspects of integrated ticketing (which is more appropriate to the subject of the thread).

Linuxluver

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#676283 24-Aug-2012 09:53

spacedog:
Anyways, I'll stop derailing this thread with ventilations about how messed up this whole situation is and leave the rest of the posters to debate the technical aspects of integrated ticketing (which is more appropriate to the subject of the thread).

The problem is that the issues with integrated ticketing - even the need for it at all - is entirely a product of this wider context I have been referring to.

Without understanding the wider context, the details at street level don't appear to make any sense...and you wonder how on Earth things ended up the way they have.

I like to know how and why things happen....and preferably get to a position where I can see them coming in the first place.....and I did manage to attain that insight in this case.

That's why I find it frustrating so many people take no notice until everything has turned to custard...and then look for someone to blame. If they paid attention earlier on the custard-turning could be avoided entirely.

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oxnsox

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#676314 24-Aug-2012 10:35

....and back on topic.....

Kyanar:
You know, not one single one of your 'issues' actually applies to a monthly discovery pass. You can't buy them on a bus anyway (so no cash management issues), there are no "additional overheads" (and even for daily passes, I can't see how this is an issue).

The other problem is that you're still proposing that I as a passenger should give up a more convenient system in favour of a new electronic tagging system. To be honest, the HOP system annoys me. Random fares, constant crashing, ridiculously laggy reporting (up to a month behind!) and all kinds of irritation. Whereas now I just wave a card at the driver as I wander past.

But an ETS gives me the advantage if I'm not a regular public transport user, and /or make irregular journeys.

Some examples: Sometimes it's more convenient to use public transport to get into meetings in the city (from the office) as it avoids parking issues. If I travel there and back its the same simple fare, but if I choose to take an additional journey (perhaps to another client) before returning an ETS gives me the advantage of a discounted fare.

From a business perspective it's a single simple accounting transaction, from a personal one it has similar advantages. I get get the benefits of the lowest cost travel option, as required, rather than a pay per ride. If I can get a coffee with that, between meetings, bonus.

HOP or Snapper may-not offer all the options, but at least it's in operation in two places in the country. And thats a plus for me.

Sharesies

Trade NZ and US shares and funds with Sharesies (affiliate link).

spacedog

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Ultimate Geek

#676330 24-Aug-2012 10:51

Linuxluver:
spacedog:
Anyways, I'll stop derailing this thread with ventilations about how messed up this whole situation is and leave the rest of the posters to debate the technical aspects of integrated ticketing (which is more appropriate to the subject of the thread).

The problem is that the issues with integrated ticketing - even the need for it at all - is entirely a product of this wider context I have been referring to.

Without understanding the wider context, the details at street level don't appear to make any sense...and you wonder how on Earth things ended up the way they have.

I like to know how and why things happen....and preferably get to a position where I can see them coming in the first place.....and I did manage to attain that insight in this case.

That's why I find it frustrating so many people take no notice until everything has turned to custard...and then look for someone to blame. If they paid attention earlier on the custard-turning could be avoided entirely.

This suggests that we could have somehow had a choice as citizens on this matter. It seems the only choice we might have had on this one was whether you tried to vote for a more liberal or a more conservative candidate/party. In order to have influence on specific programs, we would have had to seen a ballot measure on this issue, or transport. If you want the electorate to take action, you have to give them the voting choices and I rarely have seen ballot measure's used here.

sbiddle

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#676395 24-Aug-2012 13:17

Kyanar:
You know, not one single one of your 'issues' actually applies to a monthly discovery pass. You can't buy them on a bus anyway (so no cash management issues), there are no "additional overheads" (and even for daily passes, I can't see how this is an issue).

The problem with paper tickets is they're totally incompatible with the way the real world works right now - multiple bus operators running subdisised services. It needs to be known where and how people are travelling so the money can be allocated correctly.

Kyanar

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#676410 24-Aug-2012 13:49

sbiddle:

The problem with paper tickets is they're totally incompatible with the way the real world works right now - multiple bus operators running subdisised services. It needs to be known where and how people are travelling so the money can be allocated correctly.

But these paper tickets are how it works now, so I cannot see how you claim it's incompatible with how it works now.

oxnsox

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#676415 24-Aug-2012 13:57

Kyanar:
sbiddle:

The problem with paper tickets is they're totally incompatible with the way the real world works right now - multiple bus operators running subdisised services. It needs to be known where and how people are travelling so the money can be allocated correctly.

But these paper tickets are how it works now, so I cannot see how you claim it's incompatible with how it works now.

A paper ticket (especially a day pass or explorer type) doesn't record who travels where. To optimise routes and timetables it helps to know where folk are going when. E-ticket systems capture this data no matter who the operator is.

mattwnz

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#676417 24-Aug-2012 14:01

oxnsox:
Kyanar:
sbiddle:

The problem with paper tickets is they're totally incompatible with the way the real world works right now?- multiple bus operators running subdisised services. It needs to be known where and how people are travelling so the money can be allocated correctly.

But these paper tickets are how it works now, so I cannot see how you claim it's incompatible with how it works now.

A paper ticket (especially a day pass or explorer type) doesn't record who travels where. To optimise routes and timetables it helps to know where folk are going when. ?E-ticket systems capture this data no matter who the operator is.

Neither do gold card users. You have a lot of 65+ people travelling for free who are not being recorded in this way.

Kyanar

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#676419 24-Aug-2012 14:03

oxnsox: A paper ticket (especially a day pass or explorer type) doesn't record who travels where. To optimise routes and timetables it helps to know where folk are going when. E-ticket systems capture this data no matter who the operator is.

They don't need to record who travels where. They only need to record aggregated numbers of how many get on at what stop on what route, and at what time (if anything at all). They can already do this, and Infratil brands are already doing it - the usage of a Discovery pass results in the driver tapping the "record" button on their terminal to track that a Discovery pass was used.

mattwnz: Neither do gold card users. You have a lot of 65+ people travelling for free who are not being recorded in this way.

Actually, gold card holders get a printed ticket, they just don't get charged for it.

oxnsox

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#676483 24-Aug-2012 15:58

Another opportunity.... Tap the Gold Card to record these folk and their journeys. Or are folk worried there would be an increase in oldies being mugged for their Goldies?

mattwnz

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#676498 24-Aug-2012 16:40

oxnsox: Another opportunity.... Tap the Gold Card to record these folk and their journeys. Or are folk worried there would be an increase in oldies being mugged for their Goldies?

They probably wouldn't be too happy about their travel being logged, especially with privacy the way it is. That could potentially allow government departments to show the biggest gold card travel users, and table them etc. It could show that there are some that use tens of thousands of dollars of free travel a year.

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