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Scott3
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  #3100789 6-Jul-2023 23:07
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mudguard:

 

I wonder if RUCS for PHEV were based on weight (maybe like all vehicles will be), size of battery and perhaps fuel tank?

 

I guess the gist would be if the PHEV had a very small battery chances are you may drive and use mostly petrol, or vice versa, a larger battery would suggest you do more driving on pure electric and therefore had a lower RUC charge?

 

I don't know, I honestly think RUCS is a PIA compared to having it in the fuel paid for then and there. But there is probably no way of including it in an electric price. 

 

 

 

 

RUC's are already based on weight as mentioned on my post above.

 

 

 

Don't think the size of battery / fuel tank thing would fly. Too complex..., Quire possible for a shortish range PHEV with a big fuel tank to use very little fuel, while running up reasonable mileages. Especially if somebody commutes near it's range, charging at both ends.

And it creates a perverse incentive to sell PHEV's with shorter electric range and big gas tanks. Does your RUC rate change if you retrofit a long range petrol tank?

 

Fairest way is the to just let the current law stand, and have PHEV's pay RUC, but be eligible to claim back petrol tax. But this does generate a lot of paperwork.

 

 

 

RUC's are more hassle than having tax built into petrol for sure, but not so much to rule it out as idea. You can buy a years worth once a year if you want... But it is one more thing to track or set a calendar reminder to check.

 

Of course RUC's have their own issue's. Especially in an era where some car's odometers are fairly easy to change.

Diesel car's tend to be bigger, more expensive stuff, the need to buy RUC's in 1000km blocks (and with the transaction fee meaning that buying larger blocks is better value) typically isn't an issue. But if we put RUC's on all vehicles, it would be problematic for the demographic that only fuels up their car $30 at a time...




Batman
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  #3100838 7-Jul-2023 07:49
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well no wonder hybrid and PHEV sales are through the roof!


MarkH67
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  #3100845 7-Jul-2023 08:35
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Putting road tax on petrol was clearly done because it is easy and it does raise money to pay for roading. But, if we want to be fair then clearly BEVs should also contribute towards the cost of roading because they use roads too. The PHEVs are tricky because they are possibly using some petrol and it will vary a lot as to how much. Also a problem from the perspective of fairness - fuel efficient vehicles (like hybrids) and fuel inefficient vehicles (those that burn more fuel for the same weight of vehicle and speed driven) because they are paying a different amount towards the cost of roading for no reason other than we are using an easy way to collect the road tax. Driving a Prius saves you money on the cost to fuel the car and if there was a carbon emmissions charge on fuel then it would save you money on that too, but why should you contribute less to the cost of roading than someone driving the same speeds in a similar weight car? Why is it important to have BEV drivers paying their fair share while it is OK for a Prius driver to pay half as much (or whatever it works out to be)?

 

You just can't fix this unfairness unless you remove the road tax from petrol and make *ALL vehicles pay to use the roads. 

 

 

 

* All vehicles over a certain weight, I'm OK with bicycles and scooters not being included.




jarledb
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  #3100852 7-Jul-2023 08:59
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So what we should do is:

 

  • RUC on all cars
  • An extra environment tax on fuels (diesel and petrol). Let it be about what the RUC is on petrol today.

Because what we want is for everyone to pay towards roads, and we want to get people off of driving on petrol and diesel.





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Azzura
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  #3100861 7-Jul-2023 09:22
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My PHEV with 75,000 on it has 50km battery and has averaged 2.2 L per 100km for that 75,000km. When not using the battery it will burn 3.9 to 4.0L per 100 km.

 

My old 2006 Honda Jazz ...I could hyper-mile it to 4.6L per 100 km per tank and with just normal driving it averagely--- would be around 5.6 to 6.2L per 100km per tank. If they make it more expensive or a pia to run this PHEV vs a fuel efficient pure ICE....There will come a time or point at which I'll be scratching my head on this.

 

I have to ask----At what point are you not paying your fair share of road tax? Burning 6L per 100km...5L per 100...3L per 100...2L per 100...or 1L per 100?

 

Take off road user on fuel...replace it with a carbon tax or increase the carbon already on the fuel. And for people driving on the road ---For it to be fair and equatable...everyone driving on the roads ...is going to have to buy kilometers.


shk292
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  #3100866 7-Jul-2023 09:39
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I agree with the two posts above - separate out the RUC from fuel cost, and add an environmental charge to fuel.  Then you can adjust each according to policy priorities.  It will take some hard work to set it up, but any other solution is just a fudge

 

 


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  #3100876 7-Jul-2023 10:03
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Azzura:

 

My PHEV with 75,000 on it has 50km battery and has averaged 2.2 L per 100km for that 75,000km. When not using the battery it will burn 3.9 to 4.0L per 100 km.

 

My old 2006 Honda Jazz ...I could hyper-mile it to 4.6L per 100 km per tank and with just normal driving it averagely--- would be around 5.6 to 6.2L per 100km per tank. If they make it more expensive or a pia to run this PHEV vs a fuel efficient pure ICE....There will come a time or point at which I'll be scratching my head on this.

 

I have to ask----At what point are you not paying your fair share of road tax? Burning 6L per 100km...5L per 100...3L per 100...2L per 100...or 1L per 100?

 

Take off road user on fuel...replace it with a carbon tax or increase the carbon already on the fuel. And for people driving on the road ---For it to be fair and equatable...everyone driving on the roads ...is going to have to buy kilometers.

 

 

also my Nissan Leaf at 1.5 tonnes will pay the same RUC as a EV SUV / light trucks at 3.5 tonnes.

 

not too happy with that too!


 
 
 

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HarmLessSolutions
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  #3100879 7-Jul-2023 10:11
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Batman:

 

Azzura:

 

My PHEV with 75,000 on it has 50km battery and has averaged 2.2 L per 100km for that 75,000km. When not using the battery it will burn 3.9 to 4.0L per 100 km.

 

My old 2006 Honda Jazz ...I could hyper-mile it to 4.6L per 100 km per tank and with just normal driving it averagely--- would be around 5.6 to 6.2L per 100km per tank. If they make it more expensive or a pia to run this PHEV vs a fuel efficient pure ICE....There will come a time or point at which I'll be scratching my head on this.

 

I have to ask----At what point are you not paying your fair share of road tax? Burning 6L per 100km...5L per 100...3L per 100...2L per 100...or 1L per 100?

 

Take off road user on fuel...replace it with a carbon tax or increase the carbon already on the fuel. And for people driving on the road ---For it to be fair and equatable...everyone driving on the roads ...is going to have to buy kilometers.

 

 

also my Nissan Leaf at 1.5 tonnes will pay the same RUC as a EV SUV / light trucks at 3.5 tonnes.

 

not too happy with that too!

 

You're assuming that the RUC rate for EVs will be the same as the existing one for 0-3.5 tonnes which is far from certain at this point. If RUCs become distance based for various 'fuel' types (i.e. EV, PHEV, hybrid, petrol?) then a preferential rate for EVs is possible, though it does compromise the road use part of the taxation equation.





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  #3100883 7-Jul-2023 10:34
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HarmLessSolutions:

 

You're assuming that the RUC rate for EVs will be the same as the existing one for 0-3.5 tonnes which is far from certain at this point. If RUCs become distance based for various 'fuel' types (i.e. EV, PHEV, hybrid, petrol?) then a preferential rate for EVs is possible, though it does compromise the road use part of the taxation equation.

 

 

ah i thought that's what the Waka Kotahi has said, so you're saying my understanding of their statement is incorrect, let's see.

 

RUC has many different components

 

  • weight of vehicle causing road wear, the heavier the more road wear
  • congestion - giant things with no passenger/load vs small things with lots of passengers (my small Nissan Leaf would shuttle 3 kids around the place)
  • pollution - that's self explanatory

So my Nissan Leaf should pay very low RUC!


HarmLessSolutions
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  #3100887 7-Jul-2023 10:42
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Batman:

 

HarmLessSolutions:

 

You're assuming that the RUC rate for EVs will be the same as the existing one for 0-3.5 tonnes which is far from certain at this point. If RUCs become distance based for various 'fuel' types (i.e. EV, PHEV, hybrid, petrol?) then a preferential rate for EVs is possible, though it does compromise the road use part of the taxation equation.

 

 

ah i thought that's what the Waka Kotahi has said, so you're saying my understanding of their statement is incorrect, let's see.

 

RUC has many different components

 

  • weight of vehicle causing road wear, the heavier the more road wear
  • congestion - giant things with no passenger/load vs small things with lots of passengers (my small Nissan Leaf would shuttle 3 kids around the place)
  • pollution - that's self explanatory

So my Nissan Leaf should pay very low RUC!

 

AFAIK Waka Kotahi haven't definitively stated a rate of RUC that EVs will pay. I can only see a part quote of the NZ Herald article that started this latest discussion (as I don't pay to see NZH's content) and that doesn't shed any light on the origin of the $76/1,000km claim, and it well just be journalistic prophecy.





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  #3100889 7-Jul-2023 10:46
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Batman:

 

also my Nissan Leaf at 1.5 tonnes will pay the same RUC as a EV SUV / light trucks at 3.5 tonnes.

 

not too happy with that too!

 

If we do away with our mixed fuel-based & RUC-based road funding system and switch to a solely RUC-based system, then there will have to be changes to the RUC system, which was really conceptually designed for trucks, so that 3.5 tonnes is the 'bottom' tier:

 


(from https://www.nzta.govt.nz/vehicles/road-user-charges/ruc-rates-and-transaction-fees/

 

If there is a solely RUC-based system - and I think it's inevitable, maybe as soon as next year - then that means that very light cars such as the Suzuki Ignis (random choice), and large & small motorcycles, and 50cc scooters / moped will also need RUCs.
To avoid being obviously inequitable, that will mean a change in the RUC system: at the very simplest, another step for vehicles under say 2 tonnes, and a whole new category ("RUC vehicle type number") for two-wheeled vehicles.

 

What I think will happen is that after the election, there will be a one-year extension of the BEV RUC exemption, and the announcement of a whole new set of RUC categories applying to all vehicles from say 1st April 2025, together with the removal of road taxes from petrol.
That would need to be accompanied by revised offences so that parking wardens can ticket for "failing to display current RUC" and the penalties for "failing to display current RUC" and "failing to obtain RUC certificate" are more expensive than buying the darned things. Also you can't get a WoF or renew registration without a current RUC certificate.

 

Just my $0.02


wellygary
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  #3100890 7-Jul-2023 10:51
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HarmLessSolutions:

 

AFAIK Waka Kotahi haven't definitively stated a rate of RUC that EVs will pay. I can only see a part quote of the NZ Herald article that started this latest discussion (as I don't pay to see NZH's content) and that doesn't shed any light on the origin of the $76/1,000km claim, and it well just be journalistic prophecy.

 

 

The $76/1000km is the current rate of RUC rate for a 2 axle vehicle up to 3.5 Tonne, 

 

There has long been complaints that the blanket 0-3500kg class dis-incentivised small passenger diesel cars,  It was never changed, 

 

I cannot see a new class of RUC being introduced for EVs,  they will simply be lumped in with all other non-petrol cars up to 3.5 tonne 


Shadowfoot
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  #3100893 7-Jul-2023 11:03
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Separating RUC from petrol will have an impact on people living payday to payday. Cheaper petrol will be good, but having a deferred charge will be bad.
Likewise keeping petrol receipts to claim a credit will be problematic for some people.




HarmLessSolutions
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  #3100896 7-Jul-2023 11:07
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Shadowfoot: Separating RUC from petrol will have an impact on people living payday to payday. Cheaper petrol will be good, but having a deferred charge will be bad.
Likewise keeping petrol receipts to claim a credit will be problematic for some people.

 

Claiming back RUCs using petrol receipts is a recipe for fraud IMO. Either lump the lawnmower/boat fuel into the stack of receipts or siphon a bit out of the car at home.





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shk292
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  #3100903 7-Jul-2023 11:36
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Shadowfoot: Separating RUC from petrol will have an impact on people living payday to payday. Cheaper petrol will be good, but having a deferred charge will be bad.
Likewise keeping petrol receipts to claim a credit will be problematic for some people.

 

I would go further and say that any system which depends on people collecting pieces of paper and then sending them in with a form in order to get a refund is simply not scalable beyond the current small number of vehicles doing this.  Similarly, I don't agree with a system that depends on a card stuck to the windscreen for the parking warden to look at.  They wouldn't be able to see the odometer anyway, so it's not a useful check.

 

This needs to be done with technology, to be as frictionless as possible.  Buy RUCs online, linked to your rego and checked at WOF time or if you're pulled over for some reason.  Maybe petrol outlets could also sell them, so if you're filling up you get asked "Would you like some RUCs with that" - that would allow those who can't run a budget to add proportional RUCs when they put the $30 of petrol in.

 

I agree that deferring this by a year and then doing it properly is favourable to doing a half-arsed solution sooner


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