EV (electric vehicle) News and Discussion

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#3100917 7-Jul-2023 12:11

Can someone clarify the issue with receipts? I must be missing something

Refunds

You may be able get a RUC refund when:

If RUC is removed from petrol, then if I fill up the Dodge Viper or get 10L for the mower its all RUC free, I dont see why "Either lump the lawnmower/boat fuel into the stack of receipts or siphon a bit out of the car at home." would apply

tdgeek

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#3100918 7-Jul-2023 12:14

shk292:

Shadowfoot: Separating RUC from petrol will have an impact on people living payday to payday. Cheaper petrol will be good, but having a deferred charge will be bad.
Likewise keeping petrol receipts to claim a credit will be problematic for some people.

I would go further and say that any system which depends on people collecting pieces of paper and then sending them in with a form in order to get a refund is simply not scalable beyond the current small number of vehicles doing this. Similarly, I don't agree with a system that depends on a card stuck to the windscreen for the parking warden to look at. They wouldn't be able to see the odometer anyway, so it's not a useful check.

This needs to be done with technology, to be as frictionless as possible. Buy RUCs online, linked to your rego and checked at WOF time or if you're pulled over for some reason. Maybe petrol outlets could also sell them, so if you're filling up you get asked "Would you like some RUCs with that" - that would allow those who can't run a budget to add proportional RUCs when they put the $30 of petrol in.

I agree that deferring this by a year and then doing it properly is favourable to doing a half-arsed solution sooner

If when you buy $50 of petrol the gas station can charge you for the RUC that's a good option. Or a "includes RUC" button on the pump

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#3100919 7-Jul-2023 12:23

tdgeek:

....

If RUC is removed from petrol, then if I fill up the Dodge Viper or get 10L for the mower its all RUC free, I dont see why "Either lump the lawnmower/boat fuel into the stack of receipts or siphon a bit out of the car at home." would apply

If RUCs are removed from petrol there will be no need for RUC refunds on fuel cost. The example of refunds was based on distance based RUCs being adopted for PHEVs to remedy the double taxation situation if petrol was still taxed for RUCs.

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Azzura

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#3100924 7-Jul-2023 12:32

Just some searching around. If the numbers used are incorrect...my apologies.

So...

"The largest chunk goes to the National Land Transport Fund, which is money that is only spent on transport projects and maintenance. This is about 70c a litre, and doesn’t change based on how much fuel costs."
That means then.... a 4L per 100km ICE vehicle would = $2.80 per 100km in RUC.

"$76/1000km is the current rate of RUC rate for a 2 axle vehicle up to 3.5 Tonne". =$7.60 per 100km.

So that's $7.60 per 100km for an EV. Then there is my PHEV which might(?) get a refund for around 2.2L per 100km ($1.40/100KM) I burn. Costing a PHEV $6.40 per 100km.

ICE = $2.80/100km
EV = $7.60/100km
PHEV = $6.40/100km

If this is wrong...again...my apologies. But if this is correct...I can't help but laugh and smh.

everettpsycho

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#3100926 7-Jul-2023 12:40

tdgeek:
Can someone clarify the issue with receipts? I must be missing something

Refunds
You may be able get a RUC refund when:

the distance is travelled off-road

you have unused distance due to hubodometer change

a vehicle is permanently destroyed, exported or its registration cancelled.

If RUC is removed from petrol, then if I fill up the Dodge Viper or get 10L for the mower its all RUC free, I dont see why "Either lump the lawnmower/boat fuel into the stack of receipts or siphon a bit out of the car at home." would apply

The proposed refunding ruc on petrol for PHEVs avoids double dipping on their tax by charging mileage ruc and petrol ruc. If a phev driver fills up, redeems their tax then syphons the petrol in to a non phev they'll be driving tax free. We are suggesting thing slike mowers but they could easily have a phev then be syphoning in to the dodge viper that then isn't paying to be in the road.

I do second other sentiments that the paper slips can be done away with in favour if better solutions. Countries like the UK have ditched tax discs as realistically it's easier to just run the plate and see if the car has rego. Similarly if they can't see the odometer the sticker is useless. Considering you have to get rego and a wof there's two touch points a year that you could submit your odometer reading with one being validated by a mechanic, and if you get pulled over it can be checked then too so people have reason to not fall behind on their payments.

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#3100929 7-Jul-2023 12:46

everettpsycho:

The proposed refunding ruc on petrol for PHEVs avoids double dipping on their tax by charging mileage ruc and petrol ruc. If a phev driver fills up, redeems their tax then syphons the petrol in to a non phev they'll be driving tax free. We are suggesting thing slike mowers but they could easily have a phev then be syphoning in to the dodge viper that then isn't paying to be in the road.

I do second other sentiments that the paper slips can be done away with in favour if better solutions. Countries like the UK have ditched tax discs as realistically it's easier to just run the plate and see if the car has rego. Similarly if they can't see the odometer the sticker is useless. Considering you have to get rego and a wof there's two touch points a year that you could submit your odometer reading with one being validated by a mechanic, and if you get pulled over it can be checked then too so people have reason to not fall behind on their payments.

Understood, yes I get that now. Was more focussed on the remove RUC from all petrol option. Far far easier. And its already in place

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#3100951 7-Jul-2023 13:17

Azzura:

Just some searching around. If the numbers used are incorrect...my apologies.

So...

"The largest chunk goes to the National Land Transport Fund, which is money that is only spent on transport projects and maintenance. This is about 70c a litre, and doesn’t change based on how much fuel costs."
That means then.... a 4L per 100km ICE vehicle would = $2.80 per 100km in RUC.

"$76/1000km is the current rate of RUC rate for a 2 axle vehicle up to 3.5 Tonne". =$7.60 per 100km.

So that's $7.60 per 100km for an EV. Then there is my PHEV which might(?) get a refund for around 2.2L per 100km ($1.40/100KM) I burn. Costing a PHEV $6.40 per 100km.

ICE = $2.80/100km
EV = $7.60/100km
PHEV = $6.40/100km

If this is wrong...again...my apologies. But if this is correct...I can't help but laugh and smh.

Looks like your info came from this recent Stuff article.

So, based on that tax breakdown and my earlier assumption of an ICE with 7L/100km economy that equates to $49/100km (or $56/100 if GST is added) so it is deficient when compared to the $76/100 rate for diesels and potentially EVs. All the more reason for a total overhaul of the RUC system to improve its fairness to all vehicles.

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tdgeek

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#3100953 7-Jul-2023 13:18

Azzura:

Just some searching around. If the numbers used are incorrect...my apologies.

So...

"The largest chunk goes to the National Land Transport Fund, which is money that is only spent on transport projects and maintenance. This is about 70c a litre, and doesn’t change based on how much fuel costs."
That means then.... a 4L per 100km ICE vehicle would = $2.80 per 100km in RUC.

"$76/1000km is the current rate of RUC rate for a 2 axle vehicle up to 3.5 Tonne". =$7.60 per 100km.

So that's $7.60 per 100km for an EV. Then there is my PHEV which might(?) get a refund for around 2.2L per 100km ($1.40/100KM) I burn. Costing a PHEV $6.40 per 100km.

ICE = $2.80/100km
EV = $7.60/100km
PHEV = $6.40/100km

If this is wrong...again...my apologies. But if this is correct...I can't help but laugh and smh.

That's a miserly ICE. What about a V6 or V8 or even a large 4?

If RUC on petrol was scrapped for 100% RUC by mileage, all 3 cars would pay the same. Not entirely fair as the V8 should pay more as its heavier and the tyres will bite the road surface more. It pays more when on petrol, but RUC on petrol will soon be problematic

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#3100966 7-Jul-2023 13:53

tdgeek:

That's a miserly ICE. What about a V6 or V8 or even a large 4?

If RUC on petrol was scrapped for 100% RUC by mileage, all 3 cars would pay the same. Not entirely fair as the V8 should pay more as its heavier and the tyres will bite the road surface more. It pays more when on petrol, but RUC on petrol will soon be problematic

A V8 will normally be on wider tires, so the pavement loading could well be less (divide the weight of the car by the contact area). Add to that the tire pressure being run as well. Most ‘eco’ cars will run higher tire pressures for less rolling resistance, effectively how much the tire ‘squashes’ onto the road surface.

On a regular, well built roading surface light vehicles travelling at a constant speed have very little effect. If the surface is damaged then impact energy from any vehicle will further damage the surface but speed has as much effect as mass. But the true damage comes from heavy vehicles (the ones that shake the ground as they pass you). They are actually producing a significant deflection in the road surface, which depending on substrate, the road doesn’t fully recover from.

Other effects are from acceleration, either linear or radial, but once again, the vehicle has to be massive before permanent shifts in material occur. The amount of displacement is also affected by the elasticity of the surface. Warmer tarmac will be more affected (except in extreme cold, when it loses its elasticity).

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tdgeek

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#3100971 7-Jul-2023 14:03

Dingbatt:

A V8 will normally be on wider tires, so the pavement loading could well be less (divide the weight of the car by the contact area). Add to that the tire pressure being run as well. Most ‘eco’ cars will run higher tire pressures for less rolling resistance, effectively how much the tire ‘squashes’ onto the road surface.

On a regular, well built roading surface light vehicles travelling at a constant speed have very little effect. If the surface is damaged then impact energy from any vehicle will further damage the surface but speed has as much effect as mass. But the true damage comes from heavy vehicles (the ones that shake the ground as they pass you). They are actually producing a significant deflection in the road surface, which depending on substrate, the road doesn’t fully recover from.

Other effects are from acceleration, either linear or radial, but once again, the vehicle has to be massive before permanent shifts in material occur. The amount of displacement is also affected by the elasticity of the surface. Warmer tarmac will be more affected (except in extreme cold, when it loses its elasticity).

Good points. I was feeling that traction on takeoff and braking may be more on the larger cars, takeoff especially on higher horsepower cars

Dingbatt

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#3100974 7-Jul-2023 14:10

tdgeek:

Good points. I was feeling that traction on takeoff and braking may be more on the larger cars, takeoff especially on higher horsepower cars

I would posit that the LEAF with its eco tires and ability to transmit high levels of torque from a standstill would have just as big an impact.

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#3100976 7-Jul-2023 14:11

Dingbatt:

...... But the true damage comes from heavy vehicles (the ones that shake the ground as they pass you). They are actually producing a significant deflection in the road surface, which depending on substrate, the road doesn’t fully recover from.

......

I can attest to that as in my previous employment I have spent time as a surveyor on roading works. Looking through a theodolite set up on the road shoulder and seeing the telescope view move substantially as a HGV passes by makes you appreciate how much force they are exerting on the road sub-base and surrounding ground, and that was in the days before the 50+tonne limit was introduced.

Also heavy acceleration is only going to pull out a few stones from the surface whereas sub-base deflection is far more damaging and the difference maintenance wise is a reseal versus excavating and rebuilding the road formation.

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#3100979 7-Jul-2023 14:19

Ultimately, I feel like it's a bit pointless talking about what RUC might cost for X vehicle right now as there are two unknowns at play. The first is that the current government has had an ongoing project (which they took feedback on last year) to reimagine RUC before March 2024. The second is that we have an election coming up in a few months and whoever takes government will likely also factor into how this plays out - I could see a National government going with the status quo and just adding it to EVs while a Labour/Green coalition might further extend the exemption, under coalition agreements with the Greens. It also seems like a topic worthy of its own post at this point.

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#3101004 7-Jul-2023 15:54

I wonder if a potential RUC overhaul might inadvertently make small diesels a viable option? To be fair the writing is on the wall for ICE anyway.

I looked at it briefly when work changed our company car policy. Any L/100KM savings from the diesel were wiped out by RUCs. For the vehicles I was looking at, different if you need to tow etc.

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#3101025 7-Jul-2023 16:58

Azzura:
Just some searching around. If the numbers used are incorrect...my apologies.

So...

"The largest chunk goes to the National Land Transport Fund, which is money that is only spent on transport projects and maintenance. This is about 70c a litre, and doesn’t change based on how much fuel costs."
That means then.... a 4L per 100km ICE vehicle would = $2.80 per 100km in RUC.

"$76/1000km is the current rate of RUC rate for a 2 axle vehicle up to 3.5 Tonne". =$7.60 per 100km.

So that's $7.60 per 100km for an EV. Then there is my PHEV which might(?) get a refund for around 2.2L per 100km ($1.40/100KM) I burn. Costing a PHEV $6.40 per 100km.

ICE = $2.80/100km
EV = $7.60/100km
PHEV = $6.40/100km

If this is wrong...again...my apologies. But if this is correct...I can't help but laugh and smh.

My car does 16L/100ks. Dunedin is very hilly.

Not to mention boats for some people.

Some cars apparently so 1L/100ks

Question for the Waka is whether they stand to gain or lose by separately billing petrol RUC. Something for them to crunch the numbers. Also the cost of changing system.

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