EV (electric vehicle) News & Discussion

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#3101033 7-Jul-2023 17:33

Batman:

My car does 16L/100ks. Dunedin is very hilly.

Not to mention boats for some people.

Some cars apparently so 1L/100ks

Question for the Waka is whether they stand to gain or lose by separately billing petrol RUC. Something for them to crunch the numbers. Also the cost of changing system.

Dont follow your post, please elucidate

Scott3

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#3101084 7-Jul-2023 21:21

Batman:

also my Nissan Leaf at 1.5 tonnes will pay the same RUC as a EV SUV / light trucks at 3.5 tonnes.

not too happy with that too!

Should note that a 24kWh leaf is 1.5T empty, GVM is about 1.9T. A 62kWh leaf is 1.75T empty, 2.15T loaded (per https://www.evspecifications.com/).

It is the GVM that triggers the RUC band

I will detail more below, but given a leaf and Y62 patrol (3499kg GVM SUV) occupy roughly the same space on the road (incl following / leading distances), and both do negligible damage to the road it is fair that they pay the same RUC.

PolicyGuy:

If we do away with our mixed fuel-based & RUC-based road funding system and switch to a solely RUC-based system, then there will have to be changes to the RUC system, which was really conceptually designed for trucks, so that 3.5 tonnes is the 'bottom' tier:

(from https://www.nzta.govt.nz/vehicles/road-user-charges/ruc-rates-and-transaction-fees/

If there is a solely RUC-based system - and I think it's inevitable, maybe as soon as next year - then that means that very light cars such as the Suzuki Ignis (random choice), and large & small motorcycles, and 50cc scooters / moped will also need RUCs.
To avoid being obviously inequitable, that will mean a change in the RUC system: at the very simplest, another step for vehicles under say 2 tonnes, and a whole new category ("RUC vehicle type number") for two-wheeled vehicles.

What I think will happen is that after the election, there will be a one-year extension of the BEV RUC exemption, and the announcement of a whole new set of RUC categories applying to all vehicles from say 1st April 2025, together with the removal of road taxes from petrol.
That would need to be accompanied by revised offences so that parking wardens can ticket for "failing to display current RUC" and the penalties for "failing to display current RUC" and "failing to obtain RUC certificate" are more expensive than buying the darned things. Also you can't get a WoF or renew registration without a current RUC certificate.

Just my $0.02

On the RUC system being designed for truck, it could easily have weight bands under 3.5T, but the reason it dosn't is that vehcles under that weight do near negligible wear/damage to the roads.

Damage to the roads goes up by about the 4th power of axle load, so heavy trucks & busses do orders of magnitudes more damage than light vehicles. Pretty apparent in the real world too. The bus lane on Symonds street was thrashed, while the general traffic lane was in near perfection condition, despite the latter carrying far more vehicles.

Note how tiny differential between >3500kg vehicles and >6000kg vehicles. $0 - $6/1000km depending on the rear axle configuration.

Cars are really just paying for the space they occupy on the road, not damage. And once faster than a crawl, the fast majority of space occupied is in following/leading distance, so the size of the vehicle is pritty negligible in this regard.

Scott3

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#3101086 7-Jul-2023 21:31

jarledb:

So what we should do is:

RUC on all cars
An extra environment tax on fuels (diesel and petrol). Let it be about what the RUC is on petrol today.
Because what we want is for everyone to pay towards roads, and we want to get people off of driving on petrol and diesel.

Would be a massive tax hike in general.

RUC on petrol is nearly 80c/L (incl GST)

Diesel is more carbon/energy dense, so the price would jump overnight by more than that...

Should note that Petrol & Diesel already have a an effective environmental tax on them via the ETS. Why should they be taxed additionally when other fuels (i.e. industrial coal, BBQ LPG) are not...

And RUC costs on top of that for motorists...

There is a fair argument to be made that the government should be taking more tax from motorists, as we are not covering costs like running/upgrading the roading network etc at the moment, but I don't think the above will fly politically.

Batman

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#3101098 7-Jul-2023 21:48

Scott3:On the RUC system being designed for truck, it could easily have weight bands under 3.5T, but the reason it dosn't is that vehcles under that weight do near negligible wear/damage to the roads.

Damage to the roads goes up by about the 4th power of axle load, so heavy trucks & busses do orders of magnitudes more damage than light vehicles. Pretty apparent in the real world too. The bus lane on Symonds street was thrashed, while the general traffic lane was in near perfection condition, despite the latter carrying far more vehicles.

Note how tiny differential between >3500kg vehicles and >6000kg vehicles. $0 - $6/1000km depending on the rear axle configuration.

Cars are really just paying for the space they occupy on the road, not damage. And once faster than a crawl, the fast majority of space occupied is in following/leading distance, so the size of the vehicle is pritty negligible in this regard.

that makes perfect sense thanks

DS248

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#3101110 7-Jul-2023 22:59

Scott3:... Cars are really just paying for the space they occupy on the road, not damage. And once faster than a crawl, the fast majority of space occupied is in following/leading distance, so the size of the vehicle is pritty negligible in this regard.

I don't disagree with the general thrust of the above but the share of the cost of provisioning roads to be available for use by cars is also relevant.

Also bear in mind that petrol excise tax funds public transport, walking and cycling projects, and regional and local roads as well as State highways. Many local and perhaps even regional(?) roads have minimal heavily vehicle traffic. Hence cost of provisioning (& even maintaining) those roads and public transport will/should fall more heavily on cars and other light traffic.

Fiordland

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#3101117 8-Jul-2023 00:09

The roading network needs to be built and maintained so we can travel and it's getting damaged by weather, slips, quakes, etc. Everyone using roads has to pay. EV's are heavy, each new EV on NZ roads uses coal so just bought a new Subaru outback as it uses petrol which is much better for the environment. In Australia EV's use mainly coal and gas also.

MarkH67

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#3101118 8-Jul-2023 00:09

Scott3:Why should they be taxed additionally when other fuels (i.e. industrial coal, BBQ LPG) are not...

I think ALL fossil fuels should have carbon charges added on. It would electricity generated by burning coal dearer - but that seems like a sensible change to me, we should be making our power grid greener so that electric cars are responsible for even less emmissions.

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Aucklandjafa

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#3101138 8-Jul-2023 05:06

Fiordland: The roading network needs to be built and maintained so we can travel and it's getting damaged by weather, slips, quakes, etc. Everyone using roads has to pay. EV's are heavy, each new EV on NZ roads uses coal so just bought a new Subaru outback as it uses petrol which is much better for the environment. In Australia EV's use mainly coal and gas also.

Can you please elaborate on each EV using coal? As there are two points to that: NZ’s generation is over 82% renewable (with days peaking 100%). And secondly, a fleet of EV’s powered by 100% coal would still have a smaller carbon footprint than the equivalent petrol powered fleet, due to the inefficiencies of the ICE.

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#3101146 8-Jul-2023 07:16

Fiordland: each new EV on NZ roads uses coal .

in AU and Ger yes

not NZ

Fiordland

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#3101150 8-Jul-2023 07:54

In NZ we import Indonesian coal to run Huntly coal station, each new EV adds to the demand exceeding supply of renewables. As the EV's expand so does the grid supply demand. It's far worse in Australia but they've vast gas fields which supply far cleaner energy than coal.

Azzura

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#3101157 8-Jul-2023 08:40

Fiordland: In NZ we import Indonesian coal to run Huntly coal station, each new EV adds to the demand exceeding supply of renewables. As the EV's expand so does the grid supply demand. It's far worse in Australia but they've vast gas fields which supply far cleaner energy than coal.

While it's true that New Zealand imports Indonesian coal to run the Huntly coal station, the expansion of electric vehicles does not necessarily contribute to a increased demand for non-renewable energy sources exceeding the supply of renewables. In fact, electric vehicles possess the potential for decreasing the overall demand for fossil fuels.

The demand for electricity will certainly rise with the increase in the adoption of electric vehicles. However, this increase can be accommodated by further developing renewable energy sources alongside more efficient electricity generation. New Zealand, being rich in renewable resources like wind, hydro, and geothermal, has the potential to better utilize these sources for electricity generation and increase the investment in cleaner technologies over time.

While acknowledging that Australia experiences a more significant reliance on coal and higher overall CO2 emissions than New Zealand, the development of vast gas fields solely labeling it as "far cleaner energy than coal" isn't entirely accurate and needs some clarification. While natural gas does emit less CO2 compared to coal, there are other factors to consider, such as extracting and processing emissions, fugitive methane emissions from gas infrastructure, and the limited nature of fossil fuel resources.

In conclusion, instead of perceiving the expansion of EVs as exacerbating the demand-supply mismatch of renewables, we should incite greater efforts towards further developing renewable energy sources, increasing grid resilience, and implementing sustainable energy solutions.

Fiordland

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#3101163 8-Jul-2023 09:02

We are a poor, sparsely populated country and personal vehicle transport needs to be user pays. Electricity bills will sky rocket as we build for the EV demand which currently is leading to more coal burning. Local, suburban infrastructure will need significant, multi billion dollar upgrades.

Australia having lived there and worked on these projects as a dual citizen I know well, it's a far wealthier country with vast fuel resources they intend to continue to use and export in huge quantities to power China's coal stations and Indias gas demand, etc. I also work in the power sector. A lot of what you have written is wishful thinking and comes at billions of dollars of investment, cost that won't lead to any economic growth just massive hikes in kiwi power bills.

EV's aren't the magic bullet kiwis think they are, modern highly efficient combust engines, hybrids are all highly beneficial. To bring down emissions it's the coal power stations and burning of rainforest that are key to dropping carbon pollution.A lot of the cheap EV's are a threat to national security as we replace our trustworthy cars made by allies and buy Chinese controlled MG's, BYD's, Haval, etc. This is a real issue that isn't being scrutinized.

NZ should build a gas powered power station and burn far cleaner gas for mains peak demand and start for a significant earthquake damaging the south island dams.

As we drive our EV's thinking we are saving the world whilst Huntly coal station lights up we are in Disneyland. Most countries don't have our renewable resources or are like us, too poor to make it work economically.

Azzura

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#3101166 8-Jul-2023 09:16

Fiordland: We are a poor, sparsely populated country and personal vehicle transport needs to be user pays. Electricity bills will sky rocket as we build for the EV demand which currently is leading to more coal burning. Local, suburban infrastructure will need significant, multi billion dollar upgrades.

Australia having lived there and worked on these projects as a dual citizen I know well, it's a far wealthier country with vast fuel resources they intend to continue to use and export in huge quantities to power China's coal stations and Indias gas demand, etc. I also work in the power sector. A lot of what you have written is wishful thinking and comes at billions of dollars of investment, cost that won't lead to any economic growth just massive hikes in kiwi power bills.

EV's aren't the magic bullet kiwis think they are, modern highly efficient combust engines, hybrids are all highly beneficial. To bring down emissions it's the coal power stations and burning of rainforest that are key to dropping carbon pollution.A lot of the cheap EV's are a threat to national security as we replace our trustworthy cars made by allies and buy Chinese controlled MG's, BYD's, Haval, etc. This is a real issue that isn't being scrutinized.

NZ should build a gas powered power station and burn far cleaner gas for mains peak demand and start for a significant earthquake damaging the south island dams.

As we drive our EV's thinking we are saving the world whilst Huntly coal station lights up we are in Disneyland. Most countries don't have our renewable resources or are like us, too poor to make it work economically.

I appreciate your perspective on the challenges that New Zealand faces in adopting electric vehicles (EVs) and transitioning to renewable energy. It's true that a country's specific circumstances, such as population density, available resources, and existing infrastructure, need to be taken into account when considering these changes.

Regarding the increase in electricity demand and potential reliance on coal-burning plants, it is indeed a legitimate concern. The transition to EVs will require a significant increase in electricity generation capacity, which should ideally come from clean and renewable sources. New Zealand is fortunate to have natural resources like wind, hydro, and geothermal power that can contribute to this transition. However, investments in energy infrastructure upgrades and renewable energy development will be necessary in order to support the increased load.

In terms of reducing carbon emissions, it's true that cleaning up the power sector by phasing out coal-fired plants is a significant step. However, the transportation sector, including the use of both EVs and improved internal combustion engine technology, plays a significant role in emissions reductions. Therefore, a multimodal approach to decarbonization, including EVs, efficient combustion engines, and supportive infrastructure, is likely necessary to effectively address the issue.

Ultimately, New Zealand needs a comprehensive, long-term strategy, taking into account its unique circumstances and resources, in order to achieve sustainability and emission reduction goals. Assessments of the economic impact and feasibility of the transitions are important, as is public engagement and research to guide informed decision-making. With careful planning, teamwork, and strategic investments, it is possible for New Zealand to work towards a more sustainable and cleaner transportation future, while also considering the dynamic challenges that present themselves.

Ge0rge

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#3101170 8-Jul-2023 09:27

In the short-term though, aren't we encouraging the import of electric vehicles as fast as possible (rebates etc), while at the same time protesting and blocking renewable generation (Wairarapa wind farm neighbours objectioning to its build, Hawkes Bay hydro scrapped).

The increase in electricity demand is occurring steadily, but we don't appear to be keeping up with growth in production.

Consented, but not built, power stations don't produce electricity.

Fiordland

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#3101171 8-Jul-2023 09:29

I think the point we are missing is we are already far above almost any other nation on earth in renewables as a percentage of the energy consumption.

As a poor country with a small population and terrible current account deficits we are in no position to spend several hundred billion on upgrading our energy infrastructure to attempt to shift our combustion energy consumption onto the mains grid?

EV's have terrible range and are hideously expensive in upfront cost, they're about to get RUC and seriously mean sky rocketing cost of electricity.

They're also bleeding edge right now, NZ cannot afford to lead, we are a zero manufacturer of this tech and need to slow right down on deficit spending beyond our means. We need to wait, do the cheap, EV's easy gains and once the tech matures and drops in price.

Once Toyota in 2028 launches superior battery range and others the price will then be the largest issue. To replace quality vehicles like Outbacks and Hiluxes with quality, trustworthy suppliers we are going to be in the 2030's.

Bankrupting the country to try to virtue signal to a world that doesn't care about NZ's economy is foolish.

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