EV (electric vehicle) News & Discussion

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614 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3120631 26-Aug-2023 17:03

tukapa1:
johno1234:
I wonder if you can access the Westpac interest free loan without a mortgage but by using the house as security?

We recently refinanced with Westpac so we're all good there but funny I can't find anything about this loan on their website.

Just trying to decide what car to buy up to $50k.

We're not after a SUV, want a hatchback.

First decision is PHEV vs BEV. If BEV I've narrowed down to Peugeot e208, MG4 or BYD Dolphin. I swore away from the Dolphin at launch as I considered it overpriced

I'm leaning towards the MG4 but not sure of availablity in time to utilise the clean car payment before National and ACT kill it off.

Or maybe spend half that amount and buy a second hand PHEV.

There's also the Nissan leaf, opal corsa and ora good cat in that price range making it suddenly a very competitive segment. I'd struggle to recommend a leaf with its smaller air cooled battery over any of the other options you have.

The mg4 is well reviewed but I've heard a lot of complaints about the lane assist being a bit over the top and some people hate it for that. It's a tough call between them but at the lower price the MG is definitely an appealing proposition.

HarmLessSolutions

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#3120634 26-Aug-2023 17:12

tukapa1:

HarmLessSolutions:

It will be a fair bet that PHEVs will be charged (distance based) RUCs as part of the changes coming in April 2024 to bring EVs into that tax net and addressing the petrol use by them will likely be messy. That will have a significant impact on the economics of owning a PHEV so worth factoring into your purchase decision.

It does make it hard making an informed decision when you're still waiting to be informed how the gummint is going to deal with this....

Like you we have just made the decision to update an EV partly due to nowing the CCD is likely to cease in the coming months. The current low pricing of ex-Japan imported Leafs was a fortunate added bonus in our timing.

The RUC situation is far from certain presently and this Radio NZ piece provides some clues on the intent and progress of the changes we're likely to see, and that TPTB are staying very tight lipped on their progress so far. My comment regarding PHEVs is based on the logic that they are able to power themselves solely from their batteries for short distances at least so will be targeted for RUCs so as not to allow them to be a loophole in a new collection system. The potential 'double taxation' due to their petrol use will need to be addressed though and there has been plenty of discussion offered on various EV forums as to how this will be structured.

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jonathan18

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#3120648 26-Aug-2023 18:38

tukapa1:We recently refinanced with Westpac so we're all good there but funny I can't find anything about this loan on their website.

Just trying to decide what car to buy up to $50k.

We're not after a SUV, want a hatchback.

First decision is PHEV vs BEV. If BEV I've narrowed down to Peugeot e208, MG4 or BYD Dolphin. I swore away from the Dolphin at launch as I considered it overpriced

I'm leaning towards the MG4 but not sure of availablity in time to utilise the clean car payment before National and ACT kill it off.

Or maybe spend half that amount and buy a second hand PHEV.

@tukapa1: First off, we don’t know how quickly they’d abolish the rebate, so best scenario is they’ll take a while to get around to doing so. But, yeah, I get the FOMO attached to this; we decided not to risk it, as a $7k rebate amounts to a near 15% discount off the base-model MG4. So having ordered last week we’re looking like an early October delivery, but it looks like it’ll be registered a couple of weeks before that (which is when we can apply for the rebate). If you get onto it soon you may even have it delivered before the election, let alone at a point you can apply for the rebate - best thing to do is ask.

I agree about the pricing on the Dolphin being too high; my wife’s also not a fan of the interior (less divisive than the Atto 3 but she still way prefers the interior of the MG4). I also rejected the e208 for the same reasons as the Corsa and Mokka (with the e208 being even smaller than the Corsa), as outlined in an earlier post: https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=162&topicid=197896&page_no=615 . (That said, if was happy to go with any of those three, the Opels are offering much better VFM with their recent discounts.)

SaltyNZ

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#3120666 26-Aug-2023 19:58

mattwnz:

I wonder how they are going to do road user charges with PHEVs,

Hopefully they just move to RUCs for all vehicles. Then it won't matter.

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johno1234

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#3120703 27-Aug-2023 07:55

If/When the EV rebates are canned will the manufacturers price drop to compensate?

I believe they will.

tukapa1

725 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3120706 27-Aug-2023 08:02

jonathan18: I also rejected the e208 for the same reasons as the Corsa and Mokka (with the e208 being even smaller than the Corsa)

@jonathan18 I haven't seen any of these in the flesh yet. We don't have many of these dealerships in my area (with the exception of MG and my local doesn't have a physical MG4 yet) so I'm going to have to travel.

Definitely can't get by with anything too small as we have a growing 10 year old to factor in.

traderstu

332 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3120712 27-Aug-2023 08:58

tukapa1:
johno1234:

I wonder if you can access the Westpac interest free loan without a mortgage but by using the house as security?

We recently refinanced with Westpac so we're all good there but funny I can't find anything about this loan on their website.

We're "in discussion" with Westpac at the moment. We are mortgage free at the moment. 1st, we need a home loan so I have asked for a $5k revolving credit loan ($5k is their minimum), then their $50k for EV and solar system. They have told me that we meet serviceability so just waiting to see if it gets the rubber stamp. Yes, free money is too good to pass up. I will let you know how we get on.

Link to loan

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johno1234

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#3120720 27-Aug-2023 09:32

Thanks, watching with interest (pun!)

jonathan18

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#3120774 27-Aug-2023 10:05

tukapa1:
jonathan18: I also rejected the e208 for the same reasons as the Corsa and Mokka (with the e208 being even smaller than the Corsa)

@jonathan18 I haven't seen any of these in the flesh yet. We don't have many of these dealerships in my area (with the exception of MG and my local doesn't have a physical MG4 yet) so I'm going to have to travel.

Definitely can't get by with anything too small as we have a growing 10 year old to factor in.

Yeah, on that basis I’d suggest it’s not even worth checking out any of these three cars, as none are generous in rear space (we have 12 and 15 year old boys, so this was critical for us as well) - the Mokka’s the largest of the three, yet here’s that rear space/door opening:

https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxc1jvrvunuFTIV2l19mpFcakyBEzoY7PH?si=I4OEpljQDlwuCZQN

When I went through all the affordable, small but roomy EVs on the market, there really is a current scarcity of choice; most are still on ICE-based platforms, so are inherently less tardis-like.
This really does affect options if you want to ensure you get the rebate; if that’s not an issue there’ll obviously be much more choice as time goes on, eg I’ve read that Kia have a couple of small EVs in the pipeline. We’d have been keen on a ‘Model 2’, but again that’ll be 2025+…

jarledb

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#3120839 27-Aug-2023 13:30

johno1234: If/When the EV rebates are canned will the manufacturers price drop to compensate?

I believe they will.

Prices will be coming down over time with batteries getting cheaper and more effective.

BUT I don't think removing the EV rebate is going to make prices go down. Some cars in NZ have been sold for lower then in other markets to match the rebate level. Those models would probably not be sold for the same price if it wasn't for the rebate limit.

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duckDecoy

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#3120841 27-Aug-2023 13:46

Asking for a friend who is currently looking at getting an EV.

Are there any known issues or gotchas with Mitsubishi PHEVs? Most likely an Eclipse but possibly Outlander.

Dingbatt

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#3120842 27-Aug-2023 14:04

jarledb:

johno1234: If/When the EV rebates are canned will the manufacturers price drop to compensate?

I believe they will.

Prices will be coming down over time with batteries getting cheaper and more effective.

BUT I don't think removing the EV rebate is going to make prices go down. Some cars in NZ have been sold for lower then in other markets to match the rebate level. Those models would probably not be sold for the same price if it wasn't for the rebate limit.

If anything, I believe the EVs that are currently being sold at $79990 will go up in price initially to test the market, as their price has been artificially capped. Maybe not hugely, but look at their pricing relative to their long range or dual motor variants to see where their pricing should lie. NMC batteries appear to be more expensive than their LFP counterparts as well.

Removal of the Clean Car Scheme (Feebate system) should see currently owned EVs increase in value by up to $7000 and Utes decrease by up to $5000. Unless, of course, any new regime comes up with an incentive scheme of their own. They have however, made it difficult on themselves with rhetoric about “Ute Tax” and “subsidising Teslas”.

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frankv

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#3121138 28-Aug-2023 12:40

Hammerer:

You keep asserting that air is needed. When I search for “lithium ion battery fire” and do a cursory scan of those webpages then I find a lot of evidence that air is not required and nor do the fires stop when starving them of air, e.g. as on the car carrier fire.

Lithium ion battery “fires” are normally thermal runaways, chemical fires resulting from exothermic chemical reactions and also called chemical explosions, which are self-sustaining and do not require oxygen to burn. The release of oxygen just makes this worse. They cannot usually be put out by preventing exposure to air.

If you read the Wikipedia article then that is a good starting point. It mentions in at least two places that degradation and damage of the batteries can release oxygen from chemical reactions at the cathodes, eg LiCoO2 and LiMn2O4, and that heat is produced at the same time at the anode which can then create the conditions for a thermal runaway.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Lifespan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Safety

Firstly, as per https://www.futurecar.com/7695/EVs-not-implicated-in-car-carrier-fire , "as on the car carrier fire" is a fallacy.

But I think I see now where we differ... my concept of a "fire" is gaseous oxygen (usually air) plus fuel (petrol, plastic, wood, whatever) plus sufficient heat creating a self-sustaining reaction (burning, flames usually visible). This also seems to be the dictionary definition, whereas you're talking about any kind of exothermic reaction (e.g. thermal runaway) which doesn't "burn" according to my understanding of the word. So you're saying that a battery thermal runaway in (say) a pure nitrogen atmosphere is a fire, whereas I'd say it was getting very hot all by itself. Obviously, if your definition of a fire doesn't include gaseous oxygen as a necessary ingredient then excluding air won't put your fire out.

The #Lifespan link describes loss of oxygen from the cathode when the cell is below 2V... i.e. nearly flat. However, it's the loss of the oxygen that causes the degradation, not the other way round, because oxygen ions are a key part of the electron transport between anode and cathode. You lose the oxygen atoms and the battery degrades... it doesn't store energy as well. It doesn't melt down or explode or do anything fiery.

Likewise, the #Safety section doesn't seem to be particularly concerned about oxygen release. The big risk apparently is "During thermal runaway, internal degradation and oxidization processes can keep cell temperatures above 500 °C, with the possibility of igniting secondary combustibles, as well as leading to leakage, explosion or fire in extreme cases." So thermal runaway causes the battery to heat up and eventually explode, at which point the heat plus oxygen plus nearby combustibles (e.g. the electrolyte) starts a fire. Once the battery voltage drops below 2V due to the loss of the electrolyte, oxygen will be produced from "slow degradation of LiCoO2 and LiMn2O4 cathodes" (from the "Detailed degradation description"). I don't know what "slow" is at 500C, but the oxygen will be consumed by the lithium and other metals of the cathode to make oxides plus heat... I think this is what they mean by "internal degradation and oxidization processes". So I doubt that significant amounts of oxygen gas are released.

jarledb

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#3121446 28-Aug-2023 22:05

Let us put the discussion about battery fires to rest.

The facts of the matter is that BEV fires are a lot less likely to happen than ICE fires. And when they happen they are a lot slower to develop and let the occupants have a lot better time to get to safety.

Petrol and diesel cars 20 times more likely to catch fire than EVs

EV fires are slow to start, enabling occupants to escape more safely – unlike potentially explosive petrol fires.

Fire! Beware of electric car urban myths, including those by car writers

mattwnz

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#3121607 29-Aug-2023 14:53

I have a family remember who is looking at the new generation Lexus ux 300e(released a few months ago) before the clean car discounts possibly end. It now has a range of 450 WLTP and they are wanting a high quality reliable car, and for a Lexus it doesn't seem too badly priced. On paper as an EV the specs don't look great when comparing it to many others in that price range range in terms of efficiency and range. But the increased range and larger battery make it better value than it was previously . My main issue is the long DC charging time. But if they are mainly using it around home and not needing DC charging, then it shouldn't be that much of an issue. Anyone else have this model or tried one? They are on trple phase power as well, does anyone know if there is a charger that allows quicker AC home charging for this.

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