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#3160027 16-Nov-2023 06:06

Yet again NZ lets a team get a huge start out of the blocks.

And yet again we cannot chase it down. We've lost at least two this way to get here. Why did we think it would work against India?

tdgeek

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#3160031 16-Nov-2023 06:55

When DC and RR went early, game over. Seems to be a theme in big matches. Its all there, then on big game day we falter

How did India score so big? Was our fielding below par, was our bowling below par? Did we bowl at the sticks to play a "you hit the ball, great, you miss, our wicket"?

I didn't watch it, interested to hear comments from those that did. I read DC and RR were a bit unlucky

GV27

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#3160039 16-Nov-2023 07:34

tdgeek:

How did India score so big? Was our fielding below par, was our bowling below par? Did we bowl at the sticks to play a "you hit the ball, great, you miss, our wicket"?

We have had a few games now where huge totals (350+) have been posted against us and we haven't been able to chase them. Our openers have had multiple games where the RR has averaged about 10 for the first five overs. Also I'm sure the decision to pick Southee will be poured over given a) the pitch and opportunities of playing another spinner and b) what Southee ultimately ended up going for in terms of economy.

I think ultimately the risk vs. reward approach we used to use to create opportunities no longer works that well and is a big gamble against teams that can bat so far down the order like India and Australia. It's been a long time since we used our opening bowlers to try and strangle slow starts out of the opposition - now it seems to be a case of short and loose and hope someone makes a mistake.

A few years ago 300+ was a big score and now we are letting teams score close to 400 with a batting order that is great at the top but falls away extremely quickly. Our last five wickets fell today during my 25 minute drive to work. Considering we've never really had a super deep bowling or batting line-up it might be time to try something else.

tdgeek

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#3160041 16-Nov-2023 07:45

GV27:

We have had a few games now where huge totals (350+) have been posted against us and we haven't been able to chase them. Our openers have had multiple games where the RR has averaged about 10 for the first five overs. Also I'm sure the decision to pick Southee will be poured over given a) the pitch and opportunities of playing another spinner and b) what Southee ultimately ended up going for in terms of economy.

I think ultimately the risk vs. reward approach we used to use to create opportunities no longer works that well and is a big gamble against teams that can bat so far down the order like India and Australia. It's been a long time since we used our opening bowlers to try and strangle slow starts out of the opposition - now it seems to be a case of short and loose and hope someone makes a mistake.

A few years ago 300+ was a big score and now we are letting teams score close to 400 with a batting order that is great at the top but falls away extremely quickly. Our last five wickets fell today during my 25 minute drive to work. Considering we've never really had a super deep bowling or batting line-up it might be time to try something else.

Thanks. Agree with all that. My pet peeve is what I bolded. Why not bowl at the sticks and wait for the mistake? They then are forced to play at every ball, so scoring runs is a risk.

Arguably, we can choke, particularly if we either have a good batting lineup or a good bowling lineup. Not that often we have both, which would ease pressure on the others. Bazza's aggressive mentality could be looked at. Aggressive but not silly aggressive. Benefits are boost the run rate. Pressure on their bowlers, etc. Of course that can fail for obvious reasons, but at least you are playing to win, rather than play steady and hope. Also you build confidence and form by playing positive. You lose that when under pressure. India was the heavy favourite, but take that another way. NZ expects to lose, so no pressure. Play hard but not silly hard.

TeaLeaf

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#3160042 16-Nov-2023 07:46

I think the issue is our bowling system without Henry broke down, the toss was HUGE, Boult and Southee without the atmosphere to swing are just not effective anymore.

I dont think batting is our issue. I said before they game we need to keep them around 300, which we would have won. We have scored some mamoth totals this WC, but we just couldnt stop the openers with our limp bowling. Lockie needs to get back to hitting top of off and yorkers at 150+.

Ind team right now is possibly the best Ive seen, they bat deep and bowl deep.

Im still proud we got to Finals with the current NZ team.

Just well played Ind. They waited until finals to post such a total. I think th aus bowlers are their only weakness. We will see :-)

Dochart

804 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3160244 16-Nov-2023 18:30

TeaLeaf:
I think the issue is our bowling system without Henry broke down, the toss was HUGE, Boult and Southee without the atmosphere to swing are just not effective anymore.

I dont think batting is our issue. I said before they game we need to keep them around 300, which we would have won. We have scored some mamoth totals this WC, but we just couldnt stop the openers with our limp bowling. Lockie needs to get back to hitting top of off and yorkers at 150+.

Ind team right now is possibly the best Ive seen, they bat deep and bowl deep.

Im still proud we got to Finals with the current NZ team.

Just well played Ind. They waited until finals to post such a total. I think th aus bowlers are their only weakness. We will see :-)

A few factors on the loss. The toss was a huge factor of the outcome, no guarantees if we would have won if we batted first as if we had restricted India for 300 we may have been able to chase it but with India nearly scoring 400 it was always going to be a tough ask. I would have liked to see Jamieson at least played one of the group games when Ferguson was injured. Could he have been the difference in the outcome of the game with his height and bounce.

Should we have kept Will Young in the playing 11. I’m not sure what role Chapman is trying to play but could have easily have Young in the side. I would have preferred Young and Conway opening then slot Ravindra at No 5, Latham/Phillips at No 6 or 7 depending on whether we need stability or quick runs depending on when the fall of wickets happen.

Injuries have been the main issue of this side when Bracewell was ruled out of the ODI World Cup he probably would have batted at No 7 where Chapman is currently at and would have provided batting and some decent spin overs. It was quite unusual for this NZ side for the ODI World Cup to have batting up to No 7. Usually we would have batsman from 1-5/6 then have the allrounders at 7-8. If Chapman at No 7 isn’t going to provide any bowling why not select Jimmy Neesham instead who can bowl some overs and provide some decent batting before Santner.

TeaLeaf

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#3160258 16-Nov-2023 19:23

Dochart: Should we have kept Will Young in the playing 11. I’m not sure what role Chapman is trying to play but could have easily have Young in the side.

Yes it a tough one, I do understand them dropping young but hes also been thrown all over the shop and NZC has some responsibility in his form. He certainly better than shown.

Chapman is a whiteball specialist but hes coming in too low imo, both him and Phillips need time or they resort to hit out or get out, both are far better than that. but who do you drop or replace, latham for me is far from our domestic level best white ball players. Ironically Taylor was, not sure if hes given that up too this season. Essentially you need people who can either put the bad ball away or manufacture the bad ball which is all the indians are doing, trusting their eye and using the feet to produce an easy on or off side shot.

However I struggle to criticize our batting given the scores we have produced. Heck even Eng contained Pak to ~240 all out chasing 300ish.

So it goes back to our bowling. Imo you need to bowl balls that are very hard to hit or be attacking the stumps with a ball thats doing something, or a yorker at extreme pace, not a half volley.

But hard to criticize given the injuries you point out.

I think IND like all risk/reward playing will come unstuck eventually, they all do, whether its in the final I dont know, but I do know aus bowlers know the above a lot more than our old slow chaps.

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tdgeek

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#3160261 16-Nov-2023 19:39

TeaLeaf:

I think IND like all risk/reward playing will come unstuck eventually, they all do,

The trick is managing risk/reward. Too much risk you get hammered by errors. Too much calm and respect you get hammered by not scoring. You need to know when to hold them and when to fold them. (c) Kenny Rogers It's the same in all or most sport. Our issue is while we are probably the best team ever per capita, we dont have much capita! Hence if we get luck and they domino we are in it. If we happen to have a powerful team, we are in it. But our low population means its tough.

thermonuclear

604 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3160262 16-Nov-2023 19:50

Bowling was the issue for NZ throughout this tournament, unfortunately somewhat hidden from view by the Black Cap's fast start against the mediocre teams. When put under pressure by quality batting, the current bowling attack was found fairly consistantly wanting.

How Southee found his way into this squad when he was even only making up the numbers in 2019 four years earlier appears to be symptomatic of a dearth of good new talent coming through domestic cricket. At least, in the view of the current NZ selectors anyway.

Was fairly disappointed to see India's interference with the last-minute change of pitch for the match. From what I've read in the media, it does appear they exerted pressure to get the pitch they felt would better favour a positive result for themselves.

Quite aside for the reality that India can probably best any side on any surface with their line-up currently, such a move by Indian management is not a good look at all. The ICC-appointed pitch consultant should have been the only arbiter of whether the originally agreed strip was up to standard.

It seems highly unlikely to me that there was anything wrong with the pitch other than it was new and unused. It was in the centre of the wicket block and ear-marked for the Semi precisely because of that fact. Pitches either side of it were used during the tournament without incident.

Just a bad look for a side who are currently the gold-standard in world ODI cricket and should be looking to avoid any suggestion of impropriety in an ICC-managed tournament they are lucky enough to be hosting on the ICC's behalf.

tdgeek

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#3160264 16-Nov-2023 19:53

IMHO, NZ is the best team per capita. India may well rank quite poor on that metric. In any case, if poor, little NZ can often make the pointy end of the grid, that is a win

Thorak

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#3161083 19-Nov-2023 10:23

Why are so many people just brushing over the blatant BCCI cheating with the pitch changes? Doesn't matter if India win this WC, there will always back a little * next to it.

TeaLeaf

6325 posts

Uber Geek

#3161733 20-Nov-2023 18:49

tdgeek:

IMHO, NZ is the best team per capita. India may well rank quite poor on that metric. In any case, if poor, little NZ can often make the pointy end of the grid, that is a win

Indeed. No doubt.

aussies just made that look so simple. You cant be hitting out when you losing wickets.

But 3 of the batsmen did their job. Sharma rode his luck as always, quick 49, but as suggested aus pace is what Ind worry about. Those 3 Starc edges thrugh to the keeper broke the opening hopes.

NZ did so well to make the Finals, but imo, KJ is the bowler they hate facing. NZ need to learn from OZ,

Dochart

804 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3161762 20-Nov-2023 21:36

Aus make it look so easy winning world cups.

I can’t imagine what would have happen if it was NZ vs Aus in the final.

They should have at least experimented with KJ in the group stages. His height could have been lethal and made the difference in winning the semi final and maybe the final. You look at South Africa and they have Marco Jansen who is a similar height to KJ and was one of the top wicket takers for his side along with Gerald Coetzee. NZ needed a point in difference, you have Lockie with the speed, KJ with the height/bounce along with Trent & Southee.

It astonishes me that they didn’t try KJ, was it cause they didn’t want to risk him before the test matches or something else. This is something they will need to discuss.

TeaLeaf

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Uber Geek

#3165156 28-Nov-2023 15:35

Dochart:
They should have at least experimented with KJ in the group stages. His height could have been lethal and made the difference in winning the semi final and maybe the final.

for sure. The BC's do some really DUMB things sometimes, they don't think enough about what the opposition least wants. Instead Nz gave Ind exactly what they wanted to a script.

KJ has owned the Ind top order many tests, hes broken hands and fingers and take Kohli's wicket cheaply 3/4 innings. His trajectory from hand is so different to any other bowler out there. He can move it both ways but the late swing yorker is a wicket ball every time he gets it right. His bouncer off a good length looks like you could play him off the front foot and thats how so many get in a tangle.

Sure he hasnt overly impressed with the whiteball, but I feel like we gave him a few games and decided he was too expensive, rather than looking at him as purely strike bowler.

vs aussie Im not sure, I think he still has a trajectory even the best batsmen cant read,

But they have destroyed many good players by blaming losses on using him the wrong way. Which imo is Kane's biggest weakness, his risk vs reward apetite is way to meak.

anyway, we are about to start a fresh WTC cycle in one hour vs Bang, I think they will go with KJ. Or they could be meak and scared and use Southee who is passed it to be honest. If Ross Taylor wasnt good enough in his domestic ttwenty form then Im not sure why we persist with Southee.

No doubt it will be a spin heavy team.

Dochart

804 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3165164 28-Nov-2023 16:17

I was expecting them to try something different today. I was hoping they would drop Nicholls and put Ravindra at No 4. I’m glad they selected Phillips today, his bowling has been lethal so far in ODI cricket at the CWC. I’m happy with the side minus Nicholls but let’s see how this team plays when they bat second.

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