Christopher Luxon, New Zealand Prime Minister 2023

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Forums › Politics › Christopher Luxon, New Zealand Prime Minister 2023

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#3165712 29-Nov-2023 13:22

National/ACT/NZF...
They are creating enough of their own traps.
They have to find money for tax cuts.
Money to finance/give to charter schools, those farmlets are not getting cheaper.
New roads of significance.
Additional expenses, like you have to pay out those redundancies before you get savings.
You just ordered a whole bunch of cost benefit studies, for your skeptical partner.
Usually these types of things are headed by very expensive consultants, and consulting companies?
Partner also wanted a regional development fund.
So expenses adding up.

Tax cut Queen Liz Truss, nothing could go wrong.
LONDON — The new U.K. government announced a sweeping program of tax cuts and investment incentives Friday, as Prime Minister Liz Truss seeks to boost the country’s faltering economic growth.
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/23/uk-government-dishes-out-tax-cuts-as-country-braces-for-recession.html

No not likely to happen here as Labour is handing over a pretty good economy.

12 graphs that show New Zealand isn’t doing as badly as you think.
Max Rashbrooke
https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/20-11-2023/12-graphs-that-show-new-zealand-isnt-doing-as-badly-as-you-think

We did not kill off so many of our pensioners, and less productive, so that's on negative side but rest not too bad :-)

SaltyNZ

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#3165714 29-Nov-2023 13:27

GV27:

There were all sorts of issues with this report from the way the data was collected to the way the data was used. Using 'economic income' to capture things specifically not considered taxable and using to provoke outrage by suggesting the wealthy pay lower rates of tax was not our finest hour in terms of the tax policy debate.

The point is that we need to start considering more things as taxable because the things that we currently consider taxable aren't enough, and the burden of maintaining things falls more and more heavily on those who can least afford it. If you can afford to own more than one megayacht, you can afford to help build a school.

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GV27

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#3165716 29-Nov-2023 13:32

SaltyNZ:

The point is that we need to start considering more things as taxable because the things that we currently consider taxable aren't enough, and the burden of maintaining things falls more and more heavily on those who can least afford it. If you can afford to own more than one megayacht, you can afford to help build a school.

Given how much Core Crown Revenue has increased in the last six years, and how little we have to show for it, what is 'enough'?

I'm willing to wager that some people who have more than one megayacht have paid more than what it costs to build a school in taxes in their lifetimes.

sir1963

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#3165721 29-Nov-2023 13:46

SaltyNZ:

I'm not trying to justify that tax's nonexistence though, am I? And if came into existence, I would still be paying a higher rate of tax than the super-rich because I work for a living. Bring it on.

You are using a non existent tax to make the claim you pay more tax.

The top 10% of income earners are paying 80% of the income taxes. They also get no rebates and dont use a lot of the services paid for by taxes (eg hospital surgical care)

Go look at small town NZ, see what happens when investment and money goes away. Now everyone there is equal in poverty, not a great outcome.

We are losing skilled people to Australia because wages are higher there, you know people like Doctors, Surgeons , Radiologists, Nurses, Police, Trades, Teachers, all earning above average wages, now paying tax in Australia. Please explain how this has benefitted anyone in New Zealand.

The average salary for a Cafe Assistant is AU$27.42 per hour in Brisbane QLD

The national average salary for a Cafe assistant is NZ$22 (AU$ 20.32) in New Zealand

I have friends and family in Australia who are now Australian citizens, they have zero intention of coming back because the income and quality of life is so much better over there.

You want better, then we need to do better. We need higher paying jobs, We need more high tech exports, we need people willing to invest in creating those jobs.
We need the extra taxes to pay for better education, having 2-3 meals provided in all schools, to have lower student teacher ratios , to have shorter waiting lists in hospitals.
Killing the golden goose has never worked.

High skill, high wage jobs are also the ones most transportable around the world.

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#3165723 29-Nov-2023 13:47

GV27:

Given how much Core Crown Revenue has increased in the last six years, and how little we have to show for it, what is 'enough'?

I'm willing to wager that some people who have more than one megayacht have paid more than what it costs to build a school in taxes in their lifetimes.

That's not a question I can answer but everyone can look around and see just how much infrastructure is crumbling and we still can't afford to fix it - so, regardless of how much it's grown in the last 6 years, it's more than that. How many tens if not hundreds of billions of dollars are required just to fix our water infrastructure alone? To the extent that anything is going to be done about it the options are either increase rates, increase taxes, or borrow money (which just means we have to increase rates or taxes later anyway in order to pay it back).

If we just by fiat decided to appropriate half of everything the super-rich own, they'd still collectively own more stuff than more than a million people combined. Hardly starving.

I'm not suggesting we do that. But any student of history can see that when things get shitty enough the rich end up paying the guillotine tax. We're a wee way from that yet but things aren't exactly trending in the right direction. If nothing else, climate change effects are really going to bite in the next 20 years or so, and they'll be prime targets for the food and water riots.

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SaltyNZ

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#3165726 29-Nov-2023 13:50

sir1963:

The top 10% of income earners are paying 80% of the income taxes. They also get no rebates and dont use a lot of the services paid for by taxes (eg hospital surgical care)

Yes, hi, that's me. Probably closer to the top 3% than the top 10%. But the really rich don't have "income". They have wealth. And we don't tax wealth.

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tdgeek

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#3165727 29-Nov-2023 13:51

GV27:

Given how much Core Crown Revenue has increased in the last six years, and how little we have to show for it, what is 'enough'?

https://www.ird.govt.nz/about-us/tax-statistics/revenue-refunds/revenue-collected-2001-to-2022

Its being rising continually not just the last 6 years, the rise, as in the past has been steady. If you removed the recent high inflation artificial boost to GST, and allowed for the negative bump of the GFC which then recovers, then the revenue growth is broadly linear from 2001 to 2022. Then there is 20 years of low natural inflation that gradually bumps the number up.

Over this period, total Inland Revenue collected revenues and Customs GST has grown by 232% from $34.0 billion in the year to June 2001 to $113.0 billion in the year to June 2022, in line with the percentage growth in Nominal GDP.

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GV27

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#3165745 29-Nov-2023 14:21

tdgeek:

https://www.ird.govt.nz/about-us/tax-statistics/revenue-refunds/revenue-collected-2001-to-2022

Its being rising continually not just the last 6 years, the rise, as in the past has been steady. If you removed the recent high inflation artificial boost to GST, and allowed for the negative bump of the GFC which then recovers, then the revenue growth is broadly linear from 2001 to 2022. Then there is 20 years of low natural inflation that gradually bumps the number up.

The nominal number will always rise, but the issue is that at some point you get away from merely covering the nominal increases in the costs of services and into the realm of "are we actually getting value for what we are taking from people?".

The important context here is that the people you are forcibly extracting tax from are subject from the same living cost pressures as government is - except the government can draw down on billions of dollars of debt to maintain themselves, whereas everyday Kiwis just end up out on the street.

Regardless we end up the same place: There needs to be a conversation about what is reasonable for the government to cover the cost of and to provide and the tax system needs to be re-written to support it. The saga of 'more more more and value for money be damned' has hopefully stopped, but that's a little bit meaningless without the adult conversation that needs to be follow on from it.

sir1963

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#3165754 29-Nov-2023 15:00

SaltyNZ:

sir1963:

The top 10% of income earners are paying 80% of the income taxes. They also get no rebates and dont use a lot of the services paid for by taxes (eg hospital surgical care)

Yes, hi, that's me. Probably closer to the top 3% than the top 10%. But the really rich don't have "income". They have wealth. And we don't tax wealth.

Wealth by its self is worthless, ask any business person, its cash flow thats important. You can not buy groceries with assets, those assets must return an income.

Just look at Musk... bought twitter for 44 Billion, now it's worth less than 1/2 that and still falling. Its still falling because it does not generate enough income to justify it price nor cover its costs. This is why so many businesses go broke, they do not have the cash flow to pay the bills.

But the income from having a successful business is taxed, they pay rates, insurance, etc too. By growing the business they also employ people which increases economic activity which allows other businesses to thrive.

The problem comes down to where can a business be the most profitable. Sky city casino in Ohakune would be pointless. But what happens if large NZ businesses work out its better to be overseas...

Unless we can get international agreements of tax, then its a competitive environment.

So the option is to change how we as a country earn money, and aiming for low profit business like farming and tourism are not it. That "back bone of NZ" is crippling us.

tdgeek

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#3165756 29-Nov-2023 15:01

GV27:

The nominal number will always rise, but the issue is that at some point you get away from merely covering the nominal increases in the costs of services and into the realm of "are we actually getting value for what we are taking from people?".

The important context here is that the people you are forcibly extracting tax from are subject from the same living cost pressures as government is - except the government can draw down on billions of dollars of debt to maintain themselves, whereas everyday Kiwis just end up out on the street.

Regardless we end up the same place: There needs to be a conversation about what is reasonable for the government to cover the cost of and to provide and the tax system needs to be re-written to support it. The saga of 'more more more and value for money be damned' has hopefully stopped, but that's a little bit meaningless without the adult conversation that needs to be follow on from it.

Yep. Although to counteract part of that, and not as a disagreement, as the nominal revenue grows, does the nominal expenditure grow as well? It must do, otherwise we would have a treasure chest of year on year unspent surpluses. So... are we getting value? From 2001 to 2022 the same question arises. Putting waste aside for the moment, we have budgets with generally some surplus which we generally earmark to do stuff with. Most of the revenue is baked in. Govt wages, costs, benefit payments and so on. All of these increase, sometimes a great deal more when eventually after years of whining, teachers and healthcare get a big pay jump (although they are still in the negative, same theme as infrequent tax threashold adjustments) Given that we are always asking for more help for some sectors there "shouldn't" be a lot of slack. Waste. Thats an easy word, what is waste? An extra 15000 govt employees we didn't have in 2017? Possibly. They must be doing something 40 hours a week. Starting a policy and it fails, yes that's wastage. One would hope that with GR's 4B Govt spending savings, and Luxons extra 6.5% and ACT's taking the employee reduction to 15000 there should be a lot of benefit there, waste wise. No doubt Govt wastage has always been a thing as there isnt the accountability that a CEO needs to give to the Board of Directors and shareholders

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#3165757 29-Nov-2023 15:04

sir1963:

Just look at Musk... bought twitter for 44 Billion, now it's worth less than 1/2 that and still falling. Its still falling because it does not generate enough income to justify it price nor cover its costs. This is why so many businesses go broke, they do not have the cash flow to pay the bills.

... Should I send him a food parcel?

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tdgeek

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#3165761 29-Nov-2023 15:52

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/301017039/live-winston-peters-blames-media-for-auckland-covid19-lockdown

Winston throwing his toys again, a daily occurance. Yesterday Luxon wasnt aware, today Nicola says kits just hyberbole. He is running amok

ockel

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#3165765 29-Nov-2023 16:01

tdgeek:

Yep. Although to counteract part of that, and not as a disagreement, as the nominal revenue grows, does the nominal expenditure grow as well? It must do, otherwise we would have a treasure chest of year on year unspent surpluses. So... are we getting value? From 2001 to 2022 the same question arises. Putting waste aside for the moment, we have budgets with generally some surplus which we generally earmark to do stuff with. Most of the revenue is baked in. Govt wages, costs, benefit payments and so on. All of these increase, sometimes a great deal more when eventually after years of whining, teachers and healthcare get a big pay jump (although they are still in the negative, same theme as infrequent tax threashold adjustments) Given that we are always asking for more help for some sectors there "shouldn't" be a lot of slack. Waste. Thats an easy word, what is waste? An extra 15000 govt employees we didn't have in 2017? Possibly. They must be doing something 40 hours a week. Starting a policy and it fails, yes that's wastage. One would hope that with GR's 4B Govt spending savings, and Luxons extra 6.5% and ACT's taking the employee reduction to 15000 there should be a lot of benefit there, waste wise. No doubt Govt wastage has always been a thing as there isnt the accountability that a CEO needs to give to the Board of Directors and shareholders

We dont have budgets with generally some surplus which we generally earmark to do stuff with. We havent had a surplus since pre-covid. We're not expecting one until at least 2027 (according to the PREFU). The Covid spending (like the ChCh earthquake) was supposed to be temporary. Seven years is not temporary , thats addicition.

Since 2013 total govt revenue has grown at a CAGR of 5.74% (and tax revenue at 7%). Nominal GDP has grown at 5.67% (slower than total revenue and tax revenue). Spending has grown at 5.91%. It continues to grown faster than revenue which is not a good sign.

Sixth Labour Government - "Vision without Execution is just Hallucination"

sir1963

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#3165769 29-Nov-2023 16:09

SaltyNZ:

sir1963:

Just look at Musk... bought twitter for 44 Billion, now it's worth less than 1/2 that and still falling. Its still falling because it does not generate enough income to justify it price nor cover its costs. This is why so many businesses go broke, they do not have the cash flow to pay the bills.

... Should I send him a food parcel?

Probably.

sir1963

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#3165777 29-Nov-2023 16:12

ockel:

We dont have budgets with generally some surplus which we generally earmark to do stuff with. We havent had a surplus since pre-covid. We're not expecting one until at least 2027 (according to the PREFU). The Covid spending (like the ChCh earthquake) was supposed to be temporary. Seven years is not temporary , thats addicition.

Since 2013 total govt revenue has grown at a CAGR of 5.74% (and tax revenue at 7%). Nominal GDP has grown at 5.67% (slower than total revenue and tax revenue). Spending has grown at 5.91%. It continues to grown faster than revenue which is not a good sign.

Just wait for the impacts of climate change to hit.

Whole communities, all their infrastructure etc will need to be shifted. Lots more infrastructure will be inadequate and need massive upgrades.

This too will be a can that get kicked down the road, rather than "we need to plan and save money from today"

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