Bombing at Manchester concert, 19 dead

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Forums › Politics › Bombing at Manchester concert, 19 dead

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Mad Scientist
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#1788043 25-May-2017 11:14

surfisup1000:

I t
joker97:

I don't understand how "religion" can "seem to bestow special authority" to do "illegal acts". Is the Mongrel Mob a religion? Is the CIA a religion? Are American soldiers a religion? What about Pol Pot and Mao Zedong - they are religions too? Are bullies at school part of some bully religion?

So you have a group of people told to do bad things. People do bad things. Whether you're a scientist, a religious person or a religious scientist - it has absolutely zero bearing on whether you'd do bad things.

I'm not going to convince you and you're not going to convince me, so let's leave this at that.

None of your groups are religions and their motivations are quite different to that of a religious extremist. Religion is a guiding system of faith and supernatural/unscientific beliefs as opposed to a job or club membership.

Religion controls a persons way of life from birth to death...24/7...with overriding control over your life and social relations. Cults and religions are more similar.

The islamic terrorist gets their authority from the Koran which describes their religious obligations. One of those obligations is to carry out suicide bombings (kill infidels) and the koran promises they will fly to heaven and get 72 virgins (or lush life depending on translation).

If islam was never created, we would not have the terrorist bombings as they are happening today. The person who committed the Manchester bombings would not have done this because there would have been no promise of 72 virgins, nor would there be a religious book granting him authority to do what he did.

Where I possibly do agree with you, is that people become disaffected and commit atrocities regardless of religion. But, you totally discount religion as a causation, i do not. Causation varies.

Not really, your parents and friends (and to some, what they read on facebook and internet) controls your way of life, overriding everything you know to be true. Like stop smoking, eat healthy, sleep well, treat other people nicely, help those in need, don't beat pets.

If Islam was never created, yes it wouldn't happen like this. If white men were not let into Australia, the Aborigines might not have been *insert any atrocities here.

nakedmolerat

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#1788044 25-May-2017 11:21

@Rikkitic:

Are you saying that people are just nasty? Some certainly are. Others, like those in Manchester, opened their doors to the victims. I would be willing to bet some of those door openers were of the Muslim faith.

There are people who kill in the name of religion (choose any religion of choice *IRA *KKK *ISIS etc).

There are those who don't believe in god who kill for other reason (communism do not believe in God - Christians and Muslims in Russia were persecuted during Soviet time).

There are those that supposedly helping the people of that country to bring down the monarchy or government for the sake of peace and democracy (look at what happen to Afghanistan / Iraq / Libya etc).

In all of the examples above - many people including children died for no reason (collateral damage). To me, the life of the children or adults that died in Manchester or Iraq or Libya or Kenya or Africa, all of them have the same value. I grieve their death and I hope those who directly or indirectly leads to their premature death will be judged accordingly. If not in this life, it will be in the hereafter.

Wiggum

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#1788051 25-May-2017 11:38

Generally terrorists love to choose soft targets but this attack is a new low IMO.

An Ariana Grande concert no doubt will have lots of kids/teenagers in the crowd. What kind of a depraved mind chooses this kind of target? This is far more than some people just being a bit nasty.

These <Insert Religion here> type of extremists should be executed and buried with a pig.

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#1788072 25-May-2017 12:33

Wiggum:

Generally terrorists love to choose soft targets but this attack is a new low IMO.

Everyone prefers to choose soft targets.

shk292

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#1788148 25-May-2017 14:35

Wiggum:

Generally terrorists love to choose soft targets but this attack is a new low IMO.

An Ariana Grande concert no doubt will have lots of kids/teenagers in the crowd. What kind of a depraved mind chooses this kind of target? This is far more than some people just being a bit nasty.

These <Insert Religion here> type of extremists should be executed and buried with a pig.

The target choice is probably quite deliberate. Teenage girls, wearing skimpy clothes and make-up and enjoying "provocative" music, maybe even dancing to it - that is pure anathema to a devout Muslim. Young Salman no doubt thought he was cleansing the world of particularly unworthy infidels by murdering these people.

Fred99

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#1788165 25-May-2017 15:11

shk292:

Wiggum:

Generally terrorists love to choose soft targets but this attack is a new low IMO.

An Ariana Grande concert no doubt will have lots of kids/teenagers in the crowd. What kind of a depraved mind chooses this kind of target? This is far more than some people just being a bit nasty.

These <Insert Religion here> type of extremists should be executed and buried with a pig.

The target choice is probably quite deliberate. Teenage girls, wearing skimpy clothes and make-up and enjoying "provocative" music, maybe even dancing to it - that is pure anathema to a devout Muslim. Young Salman no doubt thought he was cleansing the world of particularly unworthy infidels by murdering these people.

Well yes. I imagine that if you were some form of alien life observing humans on planet Earth, you'd observe that on the parts of the planet which consume most of the resources, there was a form of worship of young females with symmetrical faces, painted to exaggerate certain facial features, garbed in clothes that weren't solely functional but designed to highlight body parts used to attract males, but mainly used to sell crap like cars, carpets, cosmetics and chocolate to people who've already got more than their fair share of everything.

The relationship basically all religions have with sex and sexuality is quite odd, presumably like other religious law derived from leaders wishes to maintain social order one way or another, while pretending that's the way god wanted it.

There is some rationality to authoritarian Muslim suppression of women's sexuality. Not sure that it's worlds apart from the funny undergarments Mormons are supposed to wear, dowdy school uniforms, or nun's habits and headgear etc.

shk292

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#1788167 25-May-2017 15:19

Fred99:

The relationship basically all religions have with sex and sexuality is quite odd, presumably like other religious law derived from leaders wishes to maintain social order one way or another, while pretending that's the way god wanted it.

There is some rationality to authoritarian Muslim suppression of women's sexuality. Not sure that it's worlds apart from the funny undergarments Mormons are supposed to wear, dowdy school uniforms, or nun's habits and headgear etc.

Yeah, I guess when you explain it that way, it's a perfectly reasonable thing to do, to commit mass murder because others aren't complying with your religious beliefs.

Thanks, that is quite enlightening. If we become enlightened enough, we can stop being so intolerant of those who wish to express their beliefs in this way.

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Fred99

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#1788170 25-May-2017 15:30

shk292:

Fred99:

The relationship basically all religions have with sex and sexuality is quite odd, presumably like other religious law derived from leaders wishes to maintain social order one way or another, while pretending that's the way god wanted it.

There is some rationality to authoritarian Muslim suppression of women's sexuality. Not sure that it's worlds apart from the funny undergarments Mormons are supposed to wear, dowdy school uniforms, or nun's habits and headgear etc.

Yeah, I guess when you explain it that way, it's a perfectly reasonable thing to do, to commit mass murder because others aren't complying with your religious beliefs.

Thanks, that is quite enlightening. If we become enlightened enough, we can stop being so intolerant of those who wish to express their beliefs in this way.

If you think I suggested that it's a "perfectly reasonable thing to do", then I'm gobsmacked.

shk292

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#1788302 25-May-2017 18:04

Fred99:

If you think I suggested that it's a "perfectly reasonable thing to do", then I'm gobsmacked.

I was exaggerating, but it kind of grates when these atrocities are compared to other religions (eg your example of Mormons' underwear), or to ancient parallels like the Conquistadors in South America or western colonisation several hundred years ago. Like, we westerners (or at least, our anccetors many generations back) had our go at being horrible in the 1600s, so it's only fair to give the Muslims a go now. Or it's compared to a lone nutter who goes off the rails at Sandy Hook. Or collateral damage, which western armed forces go to enormous trouble and expense to minimise, while insurgent groups try to maximise with things like human shields.

Yes, the IRA terror campaign was horrific and yes, they at least claimed to be Christians, but IMHO that still doesn't mean it's some other religion's turn to blow us up now.

I find it very objectionable when certain groups try to normalise Islamic terrorism, or try to downplay links between Islamism and terrorism in modern western countries. Like, "you're more likely to die from (insert inane comparison here) than terrorism", so why are we worrying about it?

Rant over, sorry

elpenguino

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#1788389 25-May-2017 21:17

Yes, the IRA terror campaign was horrific and yes, they at least claimed to be Christians, but IMHO that still doesn't mean it's some other religion's turn to blow us up now.

That's the 2nd reference I've seen to the IRA in this thread. The IRA was not a religiously motivated organisation.

Their fight was political - to remove an invader from their land (as they saw it).

I don't remember them bombing any children's concerts

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

networkn

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#1788393 25-May-2017 21:24

elpenguino:

Yes, the IRA terror campaign was horrific and yes, they at least claimed to be Christians, but IMHO that still doesn't mean it's some other religion's turn to blow us up now.

That's the 2nd reference I've seen to the IRA in this thread. The IRA was not a religiously motivated organisation.

Their fight was political - to remove an invader from their land (as they saw it).

I don't remember them bombing any children's concerts

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrington_bomb_attacks

Does it matter where the kids were killed or in the name of what? Is it ok if it's political but not if it's Religiously motivated?

elpenguino

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#1788423 25-May-2017 21:47

Yes it does - it determines your response

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

gzt

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#1788459 26-May-2017 01:01

There was an item in the world news recently about a guy on the internet whose sole purpose in life was contacting teenage girls and through a series of manipulations making them take their own lives.

The Isis operations do not look terribly dissimilar in many respects.

Batman

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#1788469 26-May-2017 06:57

gzt: There was an item in the world news recently about a guy on the internet whose sole purpose in life was contacting teenage girls and through a series of manipulations making them take their own lives.

The Isis operations do not look terribly dissimilar in many respects.

Or what goes on in Audi garages.

dwilson

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#1788470 26-May-2017 07:05

shk292:

I find it very objectionable when certain groups try to normalise Islamic terrorism, or try to downplay links between Islamism and terrorism in modern western countries. Like, "you're more likely to die from (insert inane comparison here) than terrorism", so why are we worrying about it?

The various terrorist groups have been very transparent with their plan to take the war to their enemies:

Breed, a lot.
Recruit people in their own countries to blow up, harm and kill others.
Let the populace mistreat, tease, speak ill and commit retaliatory acts against the local Muslim population living there.
Recruit the people and families harmed in step 3.
Repeat.

I find it objectionable when certain groups insist on doing EXACTLY what the terrorists want us to do.

The religious element is just one tool in their toolbox, albeit a very effective one.

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