Maori Seats

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#1826267 20-Jul-2017 23:00

MikeB4:
cadman:

MikeB4:

eph:

All those in favour of Maori seats (and their other privileges) make it sound like Maori are the poorest, most disadvantaged ethnic group in NZ.

What about other Polynesian people (aka "Islanders") who got no special privileges, no treaty to protect them but they are the worst off ethnic group in NZ? Asians are not much better off either (not talking about recent waves of rich Chinese coming to the country)...

Maori are the Tangata Whenua.

This is a perfect example of meaningless twaddle. So what?

I will help you out with the meaning then......

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangata_whenua

I say again.. so what? Specifically what, since you're being deliberately obtuse, about simply happening to be the first of a particular group to arrive at a location justifies any ongoing privilege in a democratic civilisation?

Fred99

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#1826286 21-Jul-2017 00:08

cadman:

MikeB4:
cadman:

MikeB4:

eph:

All those in favour of Maori seats (and their other privileges) make it sound like Maori are the poorest, most disadvantaged ethnic group in NZ.

What about other Polynesian people (aka "Islanders") who got no special privileges, no treaty to protect them but they are the worst off ethnic group in NZ? Asians are not much better off either (not talking about recent waves of rich Chinese coming to the country)...

Maori are the Tangata Whenua.

This is a perfect example of meaningless twaddle. So what?

I will help you out with the meaning then......

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangata_whenua

I say again.. so what? Specifically what, since you're being deliberately obtuse, about simply happening to be the first of a particular group to arrive at a location justifies any ongoing privilege in a democratic civilisation?

That's a joke - isn't it?

Sovereignty, property rights, and treaties/contracts seem to be a fairly fundamental part of laws in our (European) history.

Democratic "mob rule" should not usurp that.

driller2000

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#1826299 21-Jul-2017 05:20

As a Maori - I am firmly of the view that abolishing the seats, or not, should be determined by Maori and no one else.

I know some will chime in, as they have above, with ill informed views re the Treaty, and Tangata Whenua (and what status this entails under our legislation) and pearlers re Maori Privilege (check the stats - there ain't any) - and quite simply - I don't give a sh&t what these people think - as I have no time for ill informed people.

Anyway...enough from me....

frankv

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#1826306 21-Jul-2017 07:12

eph:

frankv:

Right... so you would advocate giving all those "Maori privileges" to poor white families and poor Pasifika families and poor Indian families and poor Vietnamese families and poor families of whatever race?

No, I wouldn't advocate any privileges based on race/colour/"time of arrival"/etc.

Just expressing my feeling from the discussion...

Right... so you would advocate giving all those "Maori privileges" to poor families of whatever race?

6FIEND

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#1826352 21-Jul-2017 09:18

frankv:

6FIEND:

Perhaps you might enlighten me by pointing to an example of positive discrimination where Maori have collectively said - Thanks, we were "in a bit of a hole, and need(ed) a bit of assistance to get back onto even terms" but we don't need this special treatment any more.

There are plenty of example of Maori-owned enterprises thriving once set up with an injection of capital. Sealord. Whalewatch Kaikoura.

It seems that you're deliberately missing the point of the question.

The two examples you gave demonstrate my point...

Whalewatch Kaikoura is a successful enterprise for Maori that was established without any special treatment or "capital injection" from NZ Government. (the Ngati Kuri founders mortgaged their homes to secure a loan to start the business.) So I'm not sure how it might be relevant to the discussion?

Sealord, however, is a Maori-owned success story that was made possible by special legislation enacted specifically to benefit Maori.

Eg. Various Waitang Tribunal findings -> lead to Maori Fisheries Act 2004 -> enables formation of Iwi Collective -> formed Aotearoa Fisheries Ltd. (now Moana New Zealand) -> owns 50% of Sealord.

But despite holding a dominant market position, no-one from Maoridom seems to be suggesting that they don't need the "special legislation" any longer.

This example reinforces my argument.

frankv

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#1826368 21-Jul-2017 10:04

6FIEND:

frankv:

6FIEND:

Perhaps you might enlighten me by pointing to an example of positive discrimination where Maori have collectively said - Thanks, we were "in a bit of a hole, and need(ed) a bit of assistance to get back onto even terms" but we don't need this special treatment any more.

There are plenty of example of Maori-owned enterprises thriving once set up with an injection of capital. Sealord. Whalewatch Kaikoura.

It seems that you're deliberately missing the point of the question.

The two examples you gave demonstrate my point...

Whalewatch Kaikoura is a successful enterprise for Maori that was established without any special treatment or "capital injection" from NZ Government. (the Ngati Kuri founders mortgaged their homes to secure a loan to start the business.) So I'm not sure how it might be relevant to the discussion?

Sealord, however, is a Maori-owned success story that was made possible by special legislation enacted specifically to benefit Maori.

Eg. Various Waitang Tribunal findings -> lead to Maori Fisheries Act 2004 -> enables formation of Iwi Collective -> formed Aotearoa Fisheries Ltd. (now Moana New Zealand) -> owns 50% of Sealord.

But despite holding a dominant market position, no-one from Maoridom seems to be suggesting that they don't need the "special legislation" any longer.

This example reinforces my argument.

Not deliberately. :) Just misunderstood. I thought you were asking for examples where positive discrimination had resulted in success. OTOH, expecting Maori collectively to say that all is well has quite rightly not happened; clearly all is not well in Maoridom.

I still think Sealord is a good example; special legislation made it possible, and Sealord appears to be running just fine, and not needing any further assistance.

My apologies re Whalewatch; I'd thought it was set up using money from the Ngai Tahu treaty settlement. Instead, let me point you to Ngai Tahu Holdings Ltd; again, no further special assistance.

Pumpedd

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#1826394 21-Jul-2017 10:46

These issues will be ongoing for at least another 150 years unless we as New Zealanders demand a change.

When the death of the Queen happens, I suggest its time for NZ to begin the process of a move to a Republic with a constitution. That will start the process of treating all peoples as equal as I would hope by then all Iwi have settled their claims.

This doesn't mean that the Treaty will be discarded, but more entrenched in the constitution, the same as other important pieces of legislation. But the time is fast approaching where we do need to stop using the Treaty as a way to continually prop up a specific group of NZers for ever.

With all that said we do need to get rid of Maori seats and all other advantageous things that favor one particular minority group. Education is the key to our future, and people who fall through the cracks (no matter what race) can be picked up by Govt Social agencies.

If we dont change the system soon, then we will need to start getting ready for a third set of Treaty claims in 20 years. It will never stop.

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MikeB4

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#1826396 21-Jul-2017 10:51

Pumpedd:

These issues will be ongoing for at least another 150 years unless we as New Zealanders demand a change.

When the death of the Queen happens, I suggest its time for NZ to begin the process of a move to a Republic with a constitution. That will start the process of treating all peoples as equal as I would hope by then all Iwi have settled their claims.

This doesn't mean that the Treaty will be discarded, but more entrenched in the constitution, the same as other important pieces of legislation. But the time is fast approaching where we do need to stop using the Treaty as a way to continually prop up a specific group of NZers for ever.

With all that said we do need to get rid of Maori seats and all other advantageous things that favor one particular minority group. Education is the key to our future, and people who fall through the cracks (no matter what race) can be picked up by Govt Social agencies.

If we dont change the system soon, then we will need to start getting ready for a third set of Treaty claims in 20 years. It will never stop.

It is very easy to avoid "third set of Treaty claims in 20 years", that is, honour the treaty. I am not convinced that we need to become a Republic, what would being a republic solve?

frankv

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#1826398 21-Jul-2017 10:53

Pumpedd:

...we do need to stop using the Treaty as a way to continually prop up a specific group of NZers for ever.

I don't see that happening at all; the Treaty settlements were made to redress breaches of the Treaty by the Crown. It's extremely likely that if it wasn't for those breaches (theft of land and other resources), there would be no need to prop them up at all.

6FIEND

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#1826400 21-Jul-2017 10:55

frankv:

OTOH, expecting Maori collectively to say that all is well has quite rightly not happened; clearly all is not well in Maoridom.

But that argument merely reinforces my perception that there is "an entrenched belief that Maori couldn't possibly function in the modern world without special dispensations".

We've danced around in a circle here... perhaps best just to leave it at, "we disagree on this."

MikeB4

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#1826402 21-Jul-2017 10:58

6FIEND:

frankv:

OTOH, expecting Maori collectively to say that all is well has quite rightly not happened; clearly all is not well in Maoridom.

But that argument merely reinforces my perception that there is "an entrenched belief that Maori couldn't possibly function in the modern world without special dispensations".

We've danced around in a circle here... perhaps best just to leave it at, "we disagree on this."

I agree to a point. For my Mokopuna I want to see all historical issues dealt with, at that point then going forward on an "equal" standing will be possible.

tdgeek

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#1826415 21-Jul-2017 11:10

What Treaty issues are still outstanding?

6FIEND

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#1826416 21-Jul-2017 11:12

Pumpedd:

These issues will be ongoing for at least another 150 years unless we as New Zealanders demand a change.

When the death of the Queen happens, I suggest its time for NZ to begin the process of a move to a Republic with a constitution. That will start the process of treating all peoples as equal as I would hope by then all Iwi have settled their claims.

...

Actually, Te Tiriti o Waitangi was the "start the process of treating all peoples as equal".

Preamble:

Na, ko te Kuini e hiahia ana kia wakaritea te Kawanatanga kia kaua ai nga kino e puta mai ki te tangata Maori kit e pakeha e noho ture kore ana

Translation:

Now it is the Queen who desires that the Governorship may be arranged that evils may not come to native men or to the white who dwells there without laws

Article 2:

Ko te Kuini o Ingarani ka wakarite ka wakaae ki nga Rangatira, ki nga Hapu, ki nga tangata katoa o Nu Tirani te tino Rangatiratanga o o ratou wenu o ratou kainga, me o ratou taonga katoa

Translation:

Here’s the Queen of England arranges and confirms to the chiefs, to all the men of New Zealand the entire chieftainship of their lands, their villages, and all their property.

Article 3:

Ka tiakina e te Kuini o Ingarani nga tangata Maori katoa o Nu Turani. Ka tukua ki a ratou nga tikanga katoa rita tahi ki ana mea ki nga tangata o Ingarani.

Translation:

The Queen of England will protect all the native men of New Zealand. She yields to them all the rights, one and the same as her doings to the men of England.

Regrettably, that intent seems to have been hijacked at various times by both parties