Mars (and beyond) radiation hazard

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#1602681 2-Aug-2016 08:44

joker97:

So what happens with the people who have signed up/picked/offered to go to Mars in ?2018

That project has all but collapsed.

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Linuxluver

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#1602682 2-Aug-2016 08:47

gzt: They live in the tunnels

That sounds like a great idea.

Though i think I read the relative lack of water and oxygen on Mars make the place one huge chemical reaction waiting to happen. Human habitation requires both water and oxygen.....so corrosion and toxic gases produced by exposing Martian soils to our habitat could be a huge problem - for us.

We may still have to live in contained areas to prevent long-delayed, natural chemical processes from consuming our air and water.

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tdgeek

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#1602683 2-Aug-2016 08:47

On the ISS I think they line the outer hull with the waste on plastic bags, apparently an effective shield addition

I assume that you can almost endlessly recycle water as they do on the ISS, as long as you can contain it from leakage out of the ISS/Mars living craft

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#1602684 2-Aug-2016 08:49

tdgeek:

On the ISS I think they line the outer hull with the waste on plastic bags, apparently an effective shield addition

I assume that you can almost endlessly recycle water as they do on the ISS, as long as you can contain it from leakage out of the ISS/Mars living craft

The ISS also obtain water from the burning of hydrogen fuel cells used for energy. Water is a by-product. Very inefficient down on Earth, but it makes sense up there.

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Linuxluver

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#1602689 2-Aug-2016 08:54

tdgeek:

Exploration is good. Past base exploration, I guess its seeking other places to live, gather resources, etc. I reckon there might be another planet in the solar system worth checking out. Maybe one that needs a bit of repair first. Can't think where.....

Mars could be terraformed...sort of.....except for the lack of a magnetosphere. That's the problem anyone hoping to live there is going to have to crack. It's not just the radiation........any atmosphere we might make will just be blown away by the passing sunlight.....as has already happened on Mars.

Do we smash something big into Mars....wait 20 millions years for it to settle down...and hope the new, larger object has enough gravity and molten magnetic core?

Or maybe a ring of nuclear generators around the planet producing a "stripe" of magnetosphere we would then build out from? There is a local magnetosphere, apparently, but it is weak and old and often below the surface of the planet. maybe we could boost that somehow.

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#1602690 2-Aug-2016 08:54

andrew027:

MikeB4: I am sure Trump will tell us he has a fix for this

Make Mars great again?

Definitely not. Most likely a one way ticket for everyone that ~~he dislikes~~ opposes him when he is President

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#1602713 2-Aug-2016 09:49

Linuxluver:

tdgeek:

Exploration is good. Past base exploration, I guess its seeking other places to live, gather resources, etc. I reckon there might be another planet in the solar system worth checking out. Maybe one that needs a bit of repair first. Can't think where.....

Mars could be terraformed...sort of.....except for the lack of a magnetosphere. That's the problem anyone hoping to live there is going to have to crack. It's not just the radiation........any atmosphere we might make will just be blown away by the passing sunlight.....as has already happened on Mars.

Do we smash something big into Mars....wait 20 millions years for it to settle down...and hope the new, larger object has enough gravity and molten magnetic core?

Or maybe a ring of nuclear generators around the planet producing a "stripe" of magnetosphere we would then build out from? There is a local magnetosphere, apparently, but it is weak and old and often below the surface of the planet. maybe we could boost that somehow.

Yep, difficult, hence my post, look for a planet with a rotating core, atmosphere, water, vegetation, maybe on in need of repairs!

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#1602741 2-Aug-2016 10:31

I doubt it would be possible to transform mars in any way, due to the lack of an atmosphere. The issue is that Mars being smaller than the earth does not have a large enough iron core to support a sizeable atmosphere - its the magnetism in the core (as I understand things) that keep an atmosphere in place. Without this, the solar winds would ionise what atmosphere mars did have and strip it off the planet (which is what I think might have happened).

Shielding I think is pretty well understood now, so I don't see any short term round trip having any issues. The same goes with building structures - I am sure there are current materials that will cope, and in the 21st centurary, I am sure we are able to create new ones if when needed.

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Bung

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#1602749 2-Aug-2016 10:48

Fred99:

It is a huge issue - it's ridiculous to say it won't be. There are people suggesting that manned mission to Mars could happen in the 2030s, yet there are only wild untested ideas to mitigate the radiation hazard - and as that paper suggests, poor understanding of the hazard.

National Radio 13 July “Boots on Mars” - That's the motto of NASA at the moment and the agency's second in charge, Dr Dava Newman, says we'll get there by the year 2039 - 70 years on from the first moon landing. Katherine Ryan interviewed Dr Newman. I got the impression that for any survivors it would be a once only trip as they would have received their lifetime safe dose of radiation.

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#1602770 2-Aug-2016 11:33

I can't imagine many people making multiple trips to Mars with current technology, even if the radiation issue is resolved. I also disagree that Mars could not be made habitable. It doesn't have to hold onto an atmosphere for a billion years. Once the atmosphere has been re-created, which apparently is possible even with technology we already know about, a few hundred thousand years should be plenty. After that it is up to the generations that follow.

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#1602878 2-Aug-2016 13:21

Bung:

Fred99:

It is a huge issue - it's ridiculous to say it won't be. There are people suggesting that manned mission to Mars could happen in the 2030s, yet there are only wild untested ideas to mitigate the radiation hazard - and as that paper suggests, poor understanding of the hazard.

National Radio 13 July “Boots on Mars” - That's the motto of NASA at the moment and the agency's second in charge, Dr Dava Newman, says we'll get there by the year 2039 - 70 years on from the first moon landing. Katherine Ryan interviewed Dr Newman. I got the impression that for any survivors it would be a once only trip as they would have received their lifetime safe dose of radiation.

Data I've read suggests that risk of exposure induced death (REID) from a return mars mission is about 7% (vs 3% as the accepted limit for astronauts).

However, I believe that's mainly derived from expectation for radiation-induced cancers - not CVD. It's also based on expectations of a mission during solar maximum - despite higher SEP levels / risk of flares, the risks actually rise during solar minimum when flare activity is much lower, as GCR flux is higher. That's significant for timing missions - and could be a problem if future solar cycles are as weak as the one that's just peaked (lowest in recorded history - since 1750).

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#1602959 2-Aug-2016 14:11

Timing missions is bit of a weak mitigation technique. You can time an outbound mission, but you may have to re-schedule your inbound missions due to delays, difficulties or emergencies.

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#1605964 7-Aug-2016 16:34

I am questioning if this thread should be moved to the Travel sub-forum...

TwoSeven

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#1605970 7-Aug-2016 17:05

Give it some "time" before you move it to the "travel" forum.

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tdgeek

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#1606031 7-Aug-2016 19:06

TwoSeven: I doubt it would be possible to transform mars in any way, due to the lack of an atmosphere. The issue is that Mars being smaller than the earth does not have a large enough iron core to support a sizeable atmosphere - its the magnetism in the core (as I understand things) that keep an atmosphere in place. Without this, the solar winds would ionise what atmosphere mars did have and strip it off the planet (which is what I think might have happened).

Shielding I think is pretty well understood now, so I don't see any short term round trip having any issues. The same goes with building structures - I am sure there are current materials that will cope, and in the 21st centurary, I am sure we are able to create new ones if when needed.

It has an iron core, but its all stopped, so no rotation and no magnetic field. I days past it had that, and flowing water and no doubt an atmosphere.

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