New Zealand Government to declare a climate emergency

Forums › Off topic › New Zealand Government to declare a climate emergency

1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | ... | 17

2456 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2611540 27-Nov-2020 08:57

Geektastic: Given that several scientific studies have concluded that having fewer children is the single greatest thing you can do to contribute to reducing this problem, I wonder if the “emergency” will see the government champion that concept?

$10 says not.

Well if that's the case then I'm helping to save the planet. I don't have any kids and am unlikely to ever have any. Maybe the govt should pay me to keep up the good work? 😀

Fred99

13684 posts

Uber Geek

#2611543 27-Nov-2020 09:07

Geektastic: Given that several scientific studies have concluded that having fewer children is the single greatest thing you can do to contribute to reducing this problem, I wonder if the “emergency” will see the government champion that concept?

$10 says not.

Which government?

Most (all?) first world nations (incl NZ) have negative natural population growth, overall population growth (if any) is achieved through immigration.

Pushing (locally) a policy of accepting negative population growth by reducing immigration to below replacement will kill the economy - or at least kill it if measuring by GDP growth is the best metric to use.

It's a global economic economic issue, ~~population growth~~ (edit) birth rate correlates with poverty, low access to healthcare and education.

Dingbatt

6756 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2611548 27-Nov-2020 09:21

MurrayM:

Geektastic: Given that several scientific studies have concluded that having fewer children is the single greatest thing you can do to contribute to reducing this problem, I wonder if the “emergency” will see the government champion that concept?

$10 says not.

Well if that's the case then I'm helping to save the planet. I don't have any kids and am unlikely to ever have any. Maybe the govt should pay me to keep up the good work? 😀

I wish people would stop using this expression. The ‘Planet’ will be just fine. It has survived much hotter and colder climates, asteroid strikes, volcanic eruptions, etc. What you are really trying to protect is our current human living conditions.

“Save the cheerleader, save the world.”

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

gzt

17134 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2611549 27-Nov-2020 09:24

Zeon: We may be able to pat ourselves on the back but the rest of the world will move on and climate change doesn't distinguish in the source of the emissions.

The program is not just about reducing local emissions.

Better to focus on moving to higher ground.

Sounds like an emergency.

MikeB4

18435 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

#2611553 27-Nov-2020 09:36

Doing nothing achieves precisely that. Doing something improves the odds 100%. For us to do nothing is contributing to the worst crime against humanity.

mclean

581 posts

Ultimate Geek

Subscriber

#2611555 27-Nov-2020 09:39

Fred99 :...It's a global economic economic issue, population growth (edit) birth rate correlates with poverty, low access to healthcare and education.

And it surely correlates with consumption, emissions and climate change.

If we accept the premise that current population levels are getting us in the crap then aggressive population reduction has to be high on the action list. Which of course runs fundamentally against human nature, let alone political will.

frankv

5680 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2611575 27-Nov-2020 09:50

mclean:

If we accept the premise that current population levels are getting us in the crap then aggressive population reduction has to be high on the action list. Which of course runs fundamentally against human nature, let alone political will.

Well, no, not really. Population reduction occurs *without* any political push in many countries, so it does not run fundamentally against human nature. Political push (e.g. China's one-child policy) is not particularly effective. What does have effect is education & health care. So if we accept the premise that current population levels are getting us in the crap then the best thing we can do is to assist poor countries with education and health care.

Quic Broadband

Move to New Zealand's best fibre broadband service (affiliate link). Free setup code: R587125ERQ6VE. Note that to use Quic Broadband you must be comfortable with configuring your own router.

Scuzzy2010

4 posts

Wannabe Geek

#2611590 27-Nov-2020 10:06

MurrayM:

Geektastic: Given that several scientific studies have concluded that having fewer children is the single greatest thing you can do to contribute to reducing this problem, I wonder if the “emergency” will see the government champion that concept?

$10 says not.

Well if that's the case then I'm helping to save the planet. I don't have any kids and am unlikely to ever have any. Maybe the govt should pay me to keep up the good work? 😀

It's common sense but whenever it gets raised some fools will always shout 'eugenics!' and hence we continue multiplying like a virus.. to quote Agent Smith (The Matrix)

"Agent Smith: Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment; but you humans do not. Instead you multiply, and multiply, until every resource is consumed. The only way for you to survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern... a virus"

freitasm

BDFL - Memuneh
79288 posts

Uber Geek

Administrator

ID Verified

Trusted

Geekzone

Lifetime subscriber

#2611591 27-Nov-2020 10:11

Scuzzy2010:

MurrayM:

Well if that's the case then I'm helping to save the planet. I don't have any kids and am unlikely to ever have any. Maybe the govt should pay me to keep up the good work? 😀

It's common sense but whenever it gets raised some fools will always shout 'eugenics!' and hence we continue multiplying like a virus.. to quote Agent Smith (The Matrix)

"Agent Smith: Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment; but you humans do not. Instead you multiply, and multiply, until every resource is consumed. The only way for you to survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern... a virus"

I agree with the quote but what was described is not eugenics. Eugenics is the attempt to improve the human species by selecting "special" traits and reducing "undesirable" ones.

Zeon

3916 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

#2611597 27-Nov-2020 10:17

Fred99:

Zeon:

Countries like China and India will keep increasing emissions.

Maybe not China.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-11-22/china-s-2060-climate-pledge-inside-xi-jinping-s-secret-plan-to-end-emissions?srnd=premium-asia

Of course you could argue that their motivation to be carbon neutral is influenced by them being a net importer of FF - so the shift away could be of net economic benefit to their economy. On the other side, net exporters of FF are quite effective at pushing climate change denialism / undermining science.

While yes China has little oil (well if they can defend their "9 dash line" claim then there is a good chance they will have a lot more) they still have a lot of coal. Unsure about Uranium. They also are building influence throughout many other countries which could become a source of imports of petroleum. Maybe you could consider the 50 year period of Hong Kong's self governance and where that has ended up about these types of commitements.

Fundamentally, after travelling and talking with a number of people throughout those countries my impressions is they have zero concern or interest in climate change. I'm not even sure if its part of the local discourse either politically, in the media or otherwise in those countries. After seeing things in those places that would probably make your average kiwi physically ill I think they have more pressing issues.

If climate change were localised then this wouldn't be such a problem but the reality is its not. I'm not sure what we can achieve? Maybe by reducing our quality of life people from other countries won't be as aspirational and thus not have as higher energy usage themselves? Perhaps for places like India improvements in electric vehicle technology and reductions in cost to parity with petroleum would be seen as positive for their polution issues? Unless they deploy more nuclear that would probably transfer to more coal plants however.

Everyone must understand that the whole world aren't us bourgeoisie westeners. Actually most aren't.

Speedtest 2019-10-14

Fred99

13684 posts

Uber Geek

#2611633 27-Nov-2020 11:05

Of course they're developing influence. The "people" may not care - but their authoritarian government does. If climate change and reducing CO2 (equiv) is going to be a major issue in international relations (likely), then being as clean as possible as soon as possible will be a valuable asset to trading nations.

If what they're doing with "Belt and Road" is deliberate debt trap diplomacy (quite likely IMO) with undesirable global consequences, then maybe the leading Western first world nations better think about countering that with viable alternatives, not hollow threats and whining.

networkn

Networkn
32351 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2611652 27-Nov-2020 11:21

Yesterday coming home from Squash I was listening to a BBC report on the electrification of rail there. What an enormous project that is, and it's something they should be pretty proud of. Imagine converting Rail in a country as heavily reliant as India, from Diesel and Coal to entirely self-providing electrical. They expect to be entirely self-sufficient for every part of the rail project, by 2030.

MikeB4

18435 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

#2611669 27-Nov-2020 11:55

Some thoughts I have with regards to action the government and Aotearoa could do....

1. Complete the electrification of the Wellington to Auckland main trunk rail line.

2. Require all goods travelling between main centres to be shipped by rail.

3. Require all goods travelling more than 200k to be shipped by rail where possible.

4. Convert the Government and local Government vehicles to electric as vehicles come up for replacement.

5. Ban the sale of new ICE vehicles by 2030.

6. Require all new build homes to have solar power.

7. Limit tourism and cruise ships.

8. Remove GST from EVs and energy alternatives for housing.

9. Provide interest free loans for the purchase of EVs.

10. Require all forestry development and harvesting to utilise selective logging and ban clear felling.

frankv

5680 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2611676 27-Nov-2020 12:04

Zeon:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-11-22/china-s-2060-climate-pledge-inside-xi-jinping-s-secret-plan-to-end-emissions?srnd=premium-asia

While yes China has little oil (well if they can defend their "9 dash line" claim then there is a good chance they will have a lot more) they still have a lot of coal. Unsure about Uranium. They also are building influence throughout many other countries which could become a source of imports of petroleum. Maybe you could consider the 50 year period of Hong Kong's self governance and where that has ended up about these types of commitements.

Oil (and coal) is decreasing in importance.Think about the transport sector, where advances in batteries (Musk's million mile battery, graphite and other technologies to increase energy density) will make EVs preferable not because they are greener but because they are cheaper. Likewise electric aircraft.

By 2060, solar and other renewables will be so cheap that (generally speaking) no-one will want to use oil or coal for anything. (I can confidently predict this, because by the time it can be proven wrong, I'll be long dead). So China's "plan to end emissions" by 2060 isn't any such thing... it's a plan to use the most efficient energy generation and transport technologies available, and ending emissions is just a side-effect of economics and technology. It's like in 1900 pledging to phase out the use of candles for home lighting.

frankv

5680 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2611678 27-Nov-2020 12:09

MikeB4:

6. Require all new build homes to have solar power.

And battery storage of some adequate kWh number.

But what effect will that have on housing prices and build rates?

1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | ... | 17