Tiwai Point is Closing

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#2519917 9-Jul-2020 11:18

Southland and the Govt can see what they can come up with. Can Manapouri be used for Southland/Otago consumers? Not sure of any big ventures that could be started down there to hoover up employees, maybe something in the fishing/tourism/stonefruit industries?

wellygary

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#2519970 9-Jul-2020 11:30

tdgeek:

Southland and the Govt can see what they can come up with. Can Manapouri be used for Southland/Otago consumers?

In a word no, There are very few industries that use 100s of MW 24/7, the only real potential would be datacentres, but they don't tend to employ many people...

evilengineer

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#2519975 9-Jul-2020 11:38

I'd be most concerned about the government making sure the global mega-corp stays on the hook for cleaning up the site properly before they go and doesn't let them weasel out of their responsibilities.

MikeB4

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#2519981 9-Jul-2020 11:45

@evilengineer I wouldn't hold my breath for that. Rio Tinto does not have a good track record. Their history is very dodgy.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

ezbee

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#2519982 9-Jul-2020 11:47

Yep they will weasel out of cleanup, no doubt parts of the contract go back many years to when environment protections were little.
Plus taking the local company down, might leave no-one to pay.
I'm looking at you Dross !

I suppose it would have been better to spend $2M ( And the other Millions ) , on a study re alternative uses for Tiwi power,
rather than that useless report on Manukau Harbour port.

Even from negotiating point of view to have solid alternatives for use of the lowest cost power in New Zealand,
puts you in a stronger position with Rio if they are playing games.

Then if worst happens you have a plan anyway.

So guess that multiple industries would be required, not a bad idea re resilience.
Milk Powder production is inherently power hungry, but probably not large enough scale without a few other industries.
Fertaliser production is also power hungry process, though we have tended to low cost natural sources though that has its problems.
Hydrogen ? Though for Hydrogen, it would depend on if you have a use that is economic and can be instituted quickly to use ?
Other valuable chemical production that is energy intensive ?
While sending more north is an option it would still rely on new industries, and comes with significant infrastrucutre cost.
It would be good to make use close to production on many levels.

Lowering power costs in the rather artificial competitive market we have, would be good for community and industry as a whole.
"My spillway only opens when I need to bump up market price"

Export industries are still going to have to compete with production elsewhere.
Covid has reduced energy costs , as there is more coal and oil looking for customers.
Even coal fired power plants, there are still new plants being built before covid in Africa and China etc.

Electric Cars, um well you need better future second hand electric cars, as that's what really drives the market.
Second hand Leaf with a few bars gone, is not the answer to everything and everyone, given our geography.
Battery replacement and upgrades, well turns out not to be so easy, given the original manufacturers do not want to assist.
It will come , but not quite so soon maybe. Not a quick solution.

Zeon

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#2519997 9-Jul-2020 12:10

I wrote an article up about this very scenario a couple of years ago promoting datacentre utilisation of that power. Opportune time?

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-new-zealand-becoming-australias-data-centre-hub-can-spence/

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ezbee

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#2520002 9-Jul-2020 12:24

Zeon:

I wrote an article up about this very scenario a couple of years ago promoting datacentre utilisation of that power. Opportune time?

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-new-zealand-becoming-australias-data-centre-hub-can-spence/

I suppose Iceland may be a comparative point , in that their price was low enough to attract Data Center and Bitcoin Mining.
Now there is a thought , is Tiwi subsidised power price low enough to make bitcoin mining economic ?
Probably has limited life given the escalating power requirements as time goes by.

If this is a reliable source ?
https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/Iceland/electricity_prices/

Though I do seem to remember discussing IOT , that Aussie has some protective inclination re certain data being stored on Aussie servers ?
That may not be significant.

MikeAqua

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#2520005 9-Jul-2020 12:26

Zeon:

I wrote an article up about this very scenario a couple of years ago promoting datacentre utilisation of that power. Opportune time?

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-new-zealand-becoming-australias-data-centre-hub-can-spence/

How close to Manapouri would data centres need to be?

Or how close to the terminal for offshore cables?

Mike

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#2520009 9-Jul-2020 12:39

I reckon the government should announce three big projects:

grid upgrades so the Manapouri power surplus can be shipped north;
a large-scale hydrogen electrolysis plant (maybe even at Tiwai Point) to create a 'clean hydrogen' industry; and
to build hybrid electric hydrogen fuel cell / battery powered railway locomotives (maybe at the Dunedin Hillside works) and give the first half-dozen to the train companies operating the scenic trains on the South Island (Picton - Christchurch, Christchurch - West Coast, Christchurch - Dunedin)

That calls Rio Tinto's bluff if they are bluffing

A hybrid electric hydrogen fuel cell / battery powered railway loco has a hydrogen fuel cell as primary power, but also a big battery pack that can add extra power go up steep hills, and be charged by regenerative braking going downhill, also provide emergency get-home power if the fuel cell packs it in / runs out of H2.
IIRC the Germans have done some work on this, it's only leading edge, not bleeding edge engineering

Edit: Spelling

tehgerbil

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#2520012 9-Jul-2020 12:53

Rio Tinto are responsible for deliberately destroying a 46,000 year old Aboriginal cave for profit, and they have no qualms about it and say they've done nothing wrong.

They're one of the most evil corporations out there, honestly they can go to hell and die. They're evil heartless bastards.

PolicyGuy

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#2520014 9-Jul-2020 12:54

Also, Transpower recently consulted on a "Clutha Upper Waitaki Lines Project" (see: https://www.transpower.co.nz/news/transpower-seeks-input-clutha-upper-waitaki-lines-project), so that's all the preparatory work for 'grid upgrades so the Manapouri power surplus can be shipped north' already done.

Transpower said the need for the project “could come from ... the availability of excess generation capacity if the Tiwai Aluminium Smelter were to close or cut back production”.
Also thier "funding enabled a project timeline that could have resulted in the completion of the project by the end of autumn in 2022.
However, with work pausing during the Government’s Alert Level 4 lockdown, and with planning and procurement decisions required earlier to meet international supply chain timelines impacted by Covid-19, the target completion is now winter 2023"

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duckDecoy

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#2520023 9-Jul-2020 13:05

ezbee:

Hydrogen ? Though for Hydrogen, it would depend on if you have a use that is economic and can be instituted quickly to use ?

Hydrogen can effectively be a 'battery' store for wholesale power supply. Its not cheap, but currently no batteries are. In one of the recent(ish) Transpower documents it was listed as a potential grid battery option. And the government is horny for batteries.

olivernz

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#2520026 9-Jul-2020 13:07

Finally green power for all those EV's we'll be driving!

Zeon

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#2520068 9-Jul-2020 13:08

duckDecoy:

ezbee:

Hydrogen ? Though for Hydrogen, it would depend on if you have a use that is economic and can be instituted quickly to use ?

Hydrogen can effectively be a 'battery' store for power. Its not cheap, but currently no batteries are. In one of the recent(ish) Transpower documents it was listed as a potential battery option. And the government is horny for batteries.

I was thinking of using Hydrogen as a battery a while ago and from memory its energy density is quite low even under higher levels of compression. And where to put it? A bunch of steel tanks? I was thinking to put some in the backyard, not sure how explosive a rupture would be....

In Europe I seem to remember they are converting caverns in mountains to stores of compressed gas (in those cases just air I think) rather than using man-made tanks.

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JaseNZ

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#2520096 9-Jul-2020 14:19

They must be shutting if they have announced it on the share market ??

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