Do you believe in race specific grants and scholarships?

Forums › Off topic › Do you believe in race specific grants and scholarships?

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#800703 17-Apr-2013 09:12

surfisup1000:
NZtechfreak:
Regardless of what people think doctors do, the reality is that we trade in trust. That is why all doctors trained in NZ are examined to the same standards, and why the situation your flatmate described would not be allowed to exist.

OK good, but I did object to you asking if i 'Fabricated' what my flatmate told me.

I have no reason to suspect her honesty as 'she' was a nice person and it is not really the type of thing that one would say unless there is an element of truth. But it is possible I misunderstood her and she was talking about one aspect of her courses.

Fair enough, I can understand that. I hope you can understand that as a Maori doctor that particular untruth rankles a great deal, because it contributes to doubt about whether Maori doctors (and myself by extension) are of variable or inferior quality.

I thought I had read the word "he" in your post, that's what you get sometimes for reading snatches of forums between getting your toddler breakfast and getting yourself to work after entirely too little sleep (thanks daylight saving!).

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crackrdbycracku

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#800707 17-Apr-2013 09:14

qwerty7: My main problem is I fail to see how we will ever live in an equal society with ethnicity / race based applications.

Truth is we won't ever live in an equal society, people are just too different for that.

But we can try to live in an equitable society.

That's always going to be a work in progress but it's worth working towards.

Didn't anybody tell you I was a hacker?

qwerty7

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#800709 17-Apr-2013 09:16

surfisup1000:
NZtechfreak:
Regardless of what people think doctors do, the reality is that we trade in trust. That is why all doctors trained in NZ are examined to the same standards, and why the situation your flatmate described would not be allowed to exist.

OK good, but I did object to you asking if i 'Fabricated' what my flatmate told me.

I have no reason to suspect her honesty as 'she' was a nice person and it is not really the type of thing that one would say unless there is an element of truth. But it is possible I misunderstood her and she was talking about one aspect of her courses.

I have 'heard' the same thing about lower pass rate for certain race's. I don't know first hand it's true but I have definitely heard it and it was something to do with first year / pre first year medical exams. Or maybe it has stemmed from the fact that they must take so many of a certain culture. So it is not exactly a lower pass rate just the fact that if you are from that culture you will get in anyway.

Edit, obviously all the rest of the exams etc after entry would be the same

NZtechfreak

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#800711 17-Apr-2013 09:20

qwerty7: My main problem is I fail to see how we will ever live in an equal society with ethnicity / race based applications.

We are one people (apparently)

Here is a $10,000 scholarship for furthering your education in xyz industry

Only [u]some[u] of you 'one people' may apply

Good lord, who wants an equal society? I want an equitable society, which is not the same thing.

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6FIEND

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#800725 17-Apr-2013 09:40

NZtechfreak:
Good lord, who wants an equal society? I want an equitable society, which is not the same thing.

I'm not so sure that you really do. (I may be wrong)

For all your effort and industry and study and years of hard work to get where you are today - would you vote for a government that taxes your income at (for argument's sake) 85% so that your take-home pay cheque was "equitable" with a Hawera based freezing worker?

...and for the indolent, intoxicated and ignorant to be 'gifted' the same level of income?

Really?

For my part, if I was Maori/Polynesian, I would be highly offended that people were correllating my heritage, my entire race, with poverty, with a lack of intelligence, with a lack of potential. Because that's what every argument in this thread to date has done! Not one comment has been made that "Race 'A' should get special treatment or assistance because of reason 'B'" ...I don't believe that there are many reasonably-minded people who are against helping out people that need it, but to insinuate that you're not capable of managing for yourself because of the colour of your skin? Or worse, to suggest that "Because of your race, you are probably poor, stupid, poorly nourished and badly raised" That must be a really hard pill to swallow!

qwerty7

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#800729 17-Apr-2013 09:49

That is a good diagram. But I still hold the same view. I know why but before I explain understand that I am always open to different opinions and seeing the other side. In fact I purposely try to understand the other side/perspective. I believe in equality because I was raised on welfare, this made me not want to go down the same path, It made me determined as **** to work hard for myself. I believe in self responsibility. If person A works harder than person B and therefore has more than person B that is because person B choose not to work hard simple. Certainly upbringing has an impact but I fail to see where the line ends beyond personal responsibility, because then you get a whole bunch on people moaning they are poor because they are culturally disadvantaged. Bollocks they are disadvantaged because generations of their family choose to sit on the dole for years, culture has nothing to do with it.

What do I think about people who will not get an insurance payout for their homes because they 'could not afford insurance'. I think that is a risk they took and therefore their problem.

Obviously this is all within reason, I do not want to see people starving and dying on the streets. That is what I believe some people may say it's too harsh, I think alot of people are too soft. As I said at the start I am always open to other opinions. I vote National and then try and understand the Labour perspective. I see it as a journey of understanding, for some reason it troubles me and I want to find a solution.

NZtechfreak

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#800748 17-Apr-2013 10:13

6FIEND:
NZtechfreak:
Good lord, who wants an equal society? I want an equitable society, which is not the same thing.

I'm not so sure that you really do. (I may be wrong)

For all your effort and industry and study and years of hard work to get where you are today - would you vote for a government that taxes your income at (for argument's sake) 85% so that your take-home pay cheque was "equitable" with a Hawera based freezing worker?

...and for the indolent, intoxicated and ignorant to be 'gifted' the same level of income?

Really?

For my part, if I was Maori/Polynesian, I would be highly offended that people were correllating my heritage, my entire race, with poverty, with a lack of intelligence, with a lack of potential. Because that's what every argument in this thread to date has done! Not one comment has been made that "Race 'A' should get special treatment or assistance because of reason 'B'" ...I don't believe that there are many reasonably-minded people who are against helping out people that need it, but to insinuate that you're not capable of managing for yourself because of the colour of your skin? Or worse, to suggest that "Because of your race, you are probably poor, stupid, poorly nourished and badly raised" That must be a really hard pill to swallow!

Ah, interesting take on things. I rather thought people were correlating a history of disadvantage through abusive colonisation with present-day over-representation in the wrong end of statistics. I certainly didn't apply deficit thinking to the equation as you are doing.

Equity doesn't require us all to have the same pay, FYI. In the scenario you present, depending on the details of said policy, I could certainly see myself voting for a government that wanted to greatly increase my taxes. I have no problem paying taxes toward a more equitable society.

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MikeB4

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#800750 17-Apr-2013 10:15

Affirmative action is an investment in our future and repaid. Alternatively we could do nothing and the return on that investment will be nothing. The logical step to take is affirmative action but that means a lot more of a "we" attitude as opposed to a "Me" attitude.

Cambo

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#800757 17-Apr-2013 10:24

6FIEND:
For my part, if I was Maori/Polynesian, I would be highly offended that people were correllating my heritage, my entire race, with poverty, with a lack of intelligence, with a lack of potential. Because that's what every argument in this thread to date has done! Not one comment has been made that "Race 'A' should get special treatment or assistance because of reason 'B'" ...I don't believe that there are many reasonably-minded people who are against helping out people that need it, but to insinuate that you're not capable of managing for yourself because of the colour of your skin? Or worse, to suggest that "Because of your race, you are probably poor, stupid, poorly nourished and badly raised" That must be a really hard pill to swallow!

You (and others) are reading things wrong.

The facts are that some cultures/ethnicities struggle or find it more difficult than other. It's fact, with stats to prove it. There is clearly a problem, and these scholarships are a way of trying to put in effect change.
There are nice people out there who think it's wrong, and we should be offering assistance to people who genuinely struggle, who genuinely want to succeed, but won't get anywhere without a hand up out of the pit.

Maori and P/I peoples are more represented as poor than NZ European - that's fact. That doesn't mean they're all lazy, or bludgers, or don't want to work. Some are, some aren't. It comes down to the person, not the culture.
If you are Maori and P/I and have managed to do well out of a poor situation, you shouldn't be offended by the above sentence but it's your problem if you are offended.

Nobody is generalising any race as stupid etc. The fact is, for those who are struggling and want to get somewhere, there is help. If you are struggling and want to stay that way, that's fine.

lokhor

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#800825 17-Apr-2013 11:19

First I must preface anything I say with this:
I am a 27 year old European NZ middle class male in a (relatively) high income job. I am a direct descendant of an early Danish settler to NZ - the Bishop D.G. Monrad . I come from a low income family and had very little assistance to complete tertiary study. I think my situation is very typical of many in this country and I don't consider myself to be special in this regard, and I acknowledge that I definitely had some advantages compared to many Maori/Pacific Islanders in this country.

I have to agree with Murray regarding an equitable society as well as his views on the disadvantages of coming from a culture that does not always have the same advantages in our society. I also think the comments about pass rates for Maori doctors are an outrage - how can you honestly believe something so obviously fabricated by an ignorant person?

Most success is not built on someone being better than anyone else as much as it is about being afforded particular opportunities by the society you are in and the background you come from. Basically what I'm saying is - if you are well off it is primarily because you were given more/better opportunities than those less fortunate, not because you are special or better than them. Having money does not make you worth more as a person, nor does thinking you are a much harder worker than people from other cultures.

There are so many problems with the wealth gap in the USA and that same pattern is starting to show up here which is a real worry. I might be considered a bit of a socialist but I truly believe we need to start heading towards a more equitable society by looking at societies like those in Scandinavian countries. This means taking measures to ensure everyone is given equal footing in society.This is of course acknowledging that we have a much more mixed culture society to deal with than Scandinavian countries.

Our mixed culture heritage and colonial history means we have to pay some respect to the fact that not all cultures are given equal opportunities in this country. Perhaps this will change over time, but as it is now if you are born into a Maori or Pacific Islander family the chances of you completing tertiary education are statistically much lower.

so tldr version

Our society is not equitable
I think targeted scholarships are good for increasing tertiary education rates in specific demographics
Problems with societal status and disparity with certain cultural demographics are not simple and there are no clear-cut solutions
Don't think of yourself as better than others just because you are more 'successful' or wealthy
wealth gap = bad
Murray is right :)

All comments are my own opinion, and not that of my employer unless explicitly stated.

6FIEND

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#800826 17-Apr-2013 11:20

Cambo:
You (and others) are reading things wrong.

The facts are that some cultures/ethnicities struggle or find it more difficult than other. It's fact, with stats to prove it. There is clearly a problem, and these scholarships are a way of trying to put in effect change.
There are nice people out there who think it's wrong, and we should be offering assistance to people who genuinely struggle, who genuinely want to succeed, but won't get anywhere without a hand up out of the pit.

On this, I whole-heartedly agree. There is indeed a problem. We should be doing what we can to help fix it. We should be offering that help to those who genuinely struggle and need assistance.

However, offering aid based exclusively on the colour of someone's skin is a very poor approach.

1) It potentially deprives equally needy people from other races/cultures of aid.
2) It dilutes the effectiveness of the aid by 'sharing' it among many people who do not necessarily need it.
3) It can foster a 'victim mentality' amongst the target group.

Cambo: Maori and P/I peoples are more represented as poor than NZ European - that's fact. That doesn't mean they're all lazy, or bludgers, or don't want to work. Some are, some aren't. It comes down to the person, not the culture.
If you are Maori and P/I and have managed to do well out of a poor situation, you shouldn't be offended by the above sentence but it's your problem if you are offended.

Nobody is generalising any race as stupid etc. The fact is, for those who are struggling and want to get somewhere, there is help. If you are struggling and want to stay that way, that's fine.

By making scholarships/etc. available to a particular race or culture because they are over-represented in all the bad statistics, we very much ARE generalising. I am not suggesting that a Maori ought to be offended by a stated fact. But I would be offended by condescention and pandering to me just because I was Maori. (I couldn't possibly achieve success on my own merits?)

How about we examine this logic in a completely different context: Perhaps someone were to moot the idea that all males were entitled to free public transport because statistically they are the least likely to use it, and they feature prominently in all the 'bad' driving statistics. Even if we put funding problems aside - would you consider this to be a good idea?

NZtechfreak

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#800858 17-Apr-2013 12:02

6FIEND: On this, I whole-heartedly agree. There is indeed a problem. We should be doing what we can to help fix it. We should be offering that help to those who genuinely struggle and need assistance.

However, offering aid based exclusively on the colour of someone's skin is a very poor approach.

1) It potentially deprives equally need people from other races/cultures of aid.
2) It dilutes the effectiveness of the aid by 'sharing' it among many people who do not necessarily need it.
3) It can foster a 'victim mentality' amongst the target group.

Nobody said it was perfect, like many ways to attempt to redress social disparity these things are somewhat of a blunt instrument. That doesn't mean the they aren't worthwhile or that they shouldn't make up part of a complex web of ways in which society tries to intervene to address inequality.

I don't know if people here are really aware of the statistics involved here regarding racial disparities in various outcomes like education and health, for instance are people aware that Maori and Pacific Islanders in poverty uniformly do worse (and often much worse) than Europeans at the same level of income? If you are going to target things, realising that any such targetting is going to be made on the basis of relatively crude/blunt methods, then the reality is that at the same level of poverty Maori and Pacific Islanders should have more funding than other groups.

Of course overarching all of this is the governments requirement to redress the wrongs that were done with respect to a certain treaty which is the founding document of our country, if you're going to talk about reasons for why Maori might have some additional targetted funding.

6FIEND: By making scholarships/etc. available to a particular race or culture because they are over-represented in all the bad statistics, we very much ARE generalising. I am not suggesting that a Maori ought to be offended by a stated fact. But I would be offended by condescention and pandering to me just because I was Maori. (I couldn't possibly achieve success on my own merits?)

Who says it is condescension? Just because you appear to have a pejorative take on their intention doesn't mean they do. I never felt like the presence of scholarships that I was entitled to in any way reflected at all on my own ability to achieve success.

6FIEND:How about we examine this logic in a completely different context: Perhaps someone were to moot the idea that all males were entitled to free public transport because statistically they are the least likely to use it. Even if we put funding problems aside - would you consider this to be a good idea?

Oh c'mon. That is clearly not remotely analagous to the wider context in play here and does not serve to advance the discussion.

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qwerty7

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#800875 17-Apr-2013 12:20

On an individual family by family basis I believe cultures in today's society have equal opportunity. There is no difference between a single parent welfare child from culture A and a single parent welfare child from Culture B. Both families are entitled to the same welfare, student loans and benefits.

Then there is culture specific scholarships for culture A (who overall apparently is statistically is poorer and disadvantaged) to outweigh the apparently better off lifestyle and income statistics of culture B. Even though both families receive the same income from the same benefit?

At what point do we know less of a certain culture in education is due to personal choices and not the effects of the treaty or lower socio economic backgrounds?

6FIEND

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#800887 17-Apr-2013 12:22

So, you have missed my 'edit' re the analogy. I'm genuinely interested to hear why you don't believe that it's analogous? (By all means, feel free to offer up your own analogy that is completely divorced from the emotive and personal issues of race/culture etc. and enables us to discuss the pros & cons of targeted vs broadly applied aid without it degenerating into ad-hominem or a much broader debate on Te Tiriti o Waitangi)

a) Statistics show conclusively (and for a prolonged period) that males feature prominently in all the negative transport reports.
b) Studies repeatedly show that men are worse/less attentive/more reckless drivers than women.
c) Everybody agrees that Public Transportation is a good thing, and the more peopel that use it, the better off everyone will be. (c.f. Education)
d) Men are significantly less likely to take full advantage of Public Transportation. (I just made that up on the spot for the purposes of this discussion)

How is it different? The Terms Men/Maori and Transport/Education are pracically interchangeable!

As I said - I'm genuinely interested to discuss the 'logic'. I'm just looking for a 'vehicle' (pardon the pun) to enable that discussion without it getting personal.

tigercorp

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#800927 17-Apr-2013 13:03

I'm all for them provided the targeted race is on the losing end of the health/education/crime stats.

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