Should New Zealand citizenship be for sale?

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#1714938 3-Feb-2017 12:51

It would have been great if the gentleman at the centre of this issue was asked to contribute a few million dollars to help the refugee and migrant services here in NZ.

Linuxluver

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#1714939 3-Feb-2017 12:53

Geektastic:

Generally yes - but it certainly does begin at home. I also think refugee status should be a temporary thing whilst a specific issue is resolved and that people should, in general, be returned whence they came as soon as possible unless they have applied for and been given Permanent Residency etc in the normal way on the same merits as anyone else.

Many of them may well go home once things improve there. But that has to happen quickly. A decade is too long. People move on.

As for a place like Syria, the US and others have allowed - er...actively enabled- that to drag on for years......for reasons best known to themselves. Russia deserves some credit for trying to bring the mess to an end....and having some success. Maybe in a few years some Syrians will be able to go home.....

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MikeB4

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#1714941 3-Feb-2017 13:00

Linuxluver:

MikeB4:

networkn:

How long do they stay there and what happens when they leave?

It has been a while since I was involved but the average stay was 6 weeks then community based groups continued the education, job placement and on going support. The goal to get the new Kiwis integrated in our society as quickly as possible but not rushed and not left alone.

Yes. They arrive in batches from UN refugee camps...and are processed at Mangere. They attend classes about life in NZ. Various support groups and agencies do try to provide ongoing support. Much of this is voluntary.

A smooth landing makes sure people don't get into trouble later....and if they do, they have someone to call for help. Mistakes happen.

I did a lot with refugees mainly after work hours. I was also involved professionally. New Zealand is not easy for refugees, we are not as accommodating as we like to think we are.

frankv

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#1715038 3-Feb-2017 16:12

Linuxluver:

No. Not if you haven't lived here for most of 5 years.....like everyone else.

As it is, anyone with 2 million dollars can get residence as a business investor more or less without any issues provided they are of good character and can show the money isn't borrowed or obtained via dubious means. But they still have to come here and live here for 5 years before they can become ciitizens.

Selling citizenships to billionaires who don't even live here is asking for trouble....and what does it say about the government that does it? I've felt for many years the party currently in government shuold be renamed the "Multi-National Trucking and Farmer Party".....because that's who serve best.

I wonder if Kim Dotcom ever tried buying citizenship?

Rikkitic

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#1715040 3-Feb-2017 16:18

Dotcom was only a multimillionaire. You probably need a billion to impress anyone.

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blakamin

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#1715093 3-Feb-2017 17:30

Geektastic:

People get citizenship for a variety of special cases, such as sportspeople needed to represent a country who are prevented from doing so by not being citizens.

That's the one that gets me...

How about the locals that might be good at the sport but don't get the opportunity?

"I know how to win a medal, lets get someone from another country because eff spending money on the locals".

That happens here in Oz all the time.

How about looking for a young person with talent but doesn't have rich parents, and help them out?

And no, nobody should be allowed to buy citizenship, ever.

I've seen some really hard working people struggle to get citizenship in NZ, and have to wait years and possibly have their lives turned upside down if they didn't get it, but hey, billionaire that doesn't even live in, or really want to live in NZ.. pfft, pathetic.

MikeAqua

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#1715145 3-Feb-2017 21:01

Linuxluver:

As for a place like Syria, the US and others have allowed - er...actively enabled- that to drag on for years......for reasons best known to themselves. Russia deserves some credit for trying to bring the mess to an end....and having some success. Maybe in a few years some Syrians will be able to go home.....

Having seen how Libya has turned out after the US intervened, they probably think there is no point in intervening in Syria.: -

- Syria has extensive air defences, so the cost of securing airspace would be high,
- There is the very real possibility of conflict with Russia which is very dangerous,
- The very real possibility that the population as a whole will be worse off after the removal of Assad.
(as seems to be the case in post Gadaffi Libya, post Hussein Iraq ... )

I also think after being (justifiably) criticised for invading Iraq the US is happy to see it turn to custard in Syria where they haven't intervened. Sort of big FY to the UN/EU.

Mike

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Geektastic

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#1715184 3-Feb-2017 22:17

blakamin:

Geektastic:

People get citizenship for a variety of special cases, such as sportspeople needed to represent a country who are prevented from doing so by not being citizens.

That's the one that gets me...

How about the locals that might be good at the sport but don't get the opportunity?

"I know how to win a medal, lets get someone from another country because eff spending money on the locals".

That happens here in Oz all the time.

How about looking for a young person with talent but doesn't have rich parents, and help them out?

And no, nobody should be allowed to buy citizenship, ever.

I've seen some really hard working people struggle to get citizenship in NZ, and have to wait years and possibly have their lives turned upside down if they didn't get it, but hey, billionaire that doesn't even live in, or really want to live in NZ.. pfft, pathetic.

Sure. Just look at UK sports teams, especially soccer. Full of people from everywhere except the UK!

Geektastic

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#1715185 3-Feb-2017 22:21

MikeAqua:

Linuxluver:

As for a place like Syria, the US and others have allowed - er...actively enabled- that to drag on for years......for reasons best known to themselves. Russia deserves some credit for trying to bring the mess to an end....and having some success. Maybe in a few years some Syrians will be able to go home.....

Having seen how Libya has turned out after the US intervened, they probably think there is no point in intervening in Syria.: -

- Syria has extensive air defences, so the cost of securing airspace would be high,
- There is the very real possibility of conflict with Russia which is very dangerous,
- The very real possibility that the population as a whole will be worse off after the removal of Assad.
(as seems to be the case in post Gadaffi Libya, post Hussein Iraq ... )

I also think after being (justifiably) criticised for invading Iraq the US is happy to see it turn to custard in Syria where they haven't intervened. Sort of big FY to the UN/EU.

They're damned if they do and damned if they don't. Whichever choice they make, some placard waving dimwits will make a nuisance over themselves about it.

Personally I would be inclined to seal the borders and let them do whatever they want to each other. You'll get no thanks for whatever option you choose anyway....people still criticise Britain for decisions made by Imperial administrators 150 years or more ago.

Rikkitic

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#1717836 9-Feb-2017 18:49

They forgot to mention New Zealand.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/02/08/travel/gallery/nations-that-sell-citizenship/index.html

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MikeB4

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#1717844 9-Feb-2017 19:08

Rikkitic:
They forgot to mention New Zealand.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/02/08/travel/gallery/nations-that-sell-citizenship/index.html

They didn't forget they didn't want to add fake news

Rikkitic

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#1717852 9-Feb-2017 19:26

Several of the countries mentioned swap citizenship for big investments. That sounds a lot like what happened in this case, except the beneficiary then went on to make a pile of money from another 'investment' that involved public money. The money was profit, so he didn't get it directly from taxpayers, but he did get the lion's share while the government got little or nothing. It wouldn't surprise me if that was enough to cover the investments he made that got him his citizenship. Not a bad way of doing business, if you have no scruples.

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tdgeek

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#1717908 9-Feb-2017 20:28

mdooher:

why not? as long as they meet the fit and proper person tests as well

All people are not equal, we want the ones that have something we want. In this case Money

They add $. They don't need $ from our welfare system. They will no doubt add jobs, whether it be cleaners, gardeners or more. Its a plus for us.

thecatsgoolies

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#1717967 9-Feb-2017 21:58

Rikkitic:

I think one of the main issues with Thiel's citizenship is he doesn't live here and never has, but has only visited a few times, just like many tourists. Different rules for the rich.

But hasn't he thrown many $$$ at NZ businesses? I guess that's a financial win for our country (or the company concerned) I'm sure they can apply for some crazy tax exclusion.

Rikkitic

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#1717974 9-Feb-2017 22:07

I would not argue against the possibility that he has made a real financial contribution to the country. I simply don't know. My point from the beginning, and it is my only point, is that if two people, identical in every respect except wealth, decide they want New Zealand citizenship for whatever reason, they will be treated differently. As others have pointed out here, the law is actually set up to ensure they are treated differently. If you are rich enough, the rules apparently allow you to demand, and receive, citizenship without having any meaningful ties to the country, and without even having to be in the country. Now try that if you are not rich.

Different rules for the rich, thus.

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