Should New Zealand citizenship be for sale?

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#1718005 9-Feb-2017 23:38

thecatsgoolies:

Rikkitic:

I think one of the main issues with Thiel's citizenship is he doesn't live here and never has, but has only visited a few times, just like many tourists. Different rules for the rich.

But hasn't he thrown many $$$ at NZ businesses? I guess that's a financial win for our country (or the company concerned) I'm sure they can apply for some crazy tax exclusion.

I think he put about $4 million in Xero, amongst other things.

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#1718038 10-Feb-2017 07:14

tdgeek:

They add $. .... They will no doubt add jobs, whether it be cleaners, gardeners or more. Its a plus for us.

This is trickle-down in disguise.

The reason they add $ is because they expect to take away $ in the future... more $ than they could take away for the same investment elsewhere.

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#1718061 10-Feb-2017 07:58

Rikkitic:
I would not argue against the possibility that he has made a real financial contribution to the country. I simply don't know. My point from the beginning, and it is my only point, is that if two people, identical in every respect except wealth, decide they want New Zealand citizenship for whatever reason, they will be treated differently. As others have pointed out here, the law is actually set up to ensure they are treated differently. If you are rich enough, the rules apparently allow you to demand, and receive, citizenship without having any meaningful ties to the country, and without even having to be in the country. Now try that if you are not rich.

Different rules for the rich, thus.

There is nothing wrong with being rich.

networkn

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#1718098 10-Feb-2017 09:15

Rikkitic:

I would not argue against the possibility that he has made a real financial contribution to the country. I simply don't know. My point from the beginning, and it is my only point, is that if two people, identical in every respect except wealth, decide they want New Zealand citizenship for whatever reason, they will be treated differently. As others have pointed out here, the law is actually set up to ensure they are treated differently. If you are rich enough, the rules apparently allow you to demand, and receive, citizenship without having any meaningful ties to the country, and without even having to be in the country. Now try that if you are not rich.

Different rules for the rich, thus.

/me sighs

We covered this pages ago, you were unable to articulate how in this situation it was true, or any other for that matter, so you continue to make assertions based on your "feelings".

When you can show some actual rule that was broken as a sole result of his wealth, then you are entitled to make claims of favouritism, until then....

Geektastic

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#1718124 10-Feb-2017 10:24

frankv:

tdgeek:

They add $. .... They will no doubt add jobs, whether it be cleaners, gardeners or more. Its a plus for us.

This is trickle-down in disguise.

The reason they add $ is because they expect to take away $ in the future... more $ than they could take away for the same investment elsewhere.

And why else would anyone add money to something?

networkn

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#1718149 10-Feb-2017 10:28

Geektastic:

frankv:

tdgeek:

They add $. .... They will no doubt add jobs, whether it be cleaners, gardeners or more. Its a plus for us.

This is trickle-down in disguise.

The reason they add $ is because they expect to take away $ in the future... more $ than they could take away for the same investment elsewhere.

And why else would anyone add money to something?

Exactly. It's amazing to me some of the comments in this thread.

Unless it's a donation, people generally expect a return on their investment.

frankv

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#1718190 10-Feb-2017 11:07

networkn:

Geektastic:

frankv:

tdgeek:

They add $. .... They will no doubt add jobs, whether it be cleaners, gardeners or more. Its a plus for us.

This is trickle-down in disguise.

The reason they add $ is because they expect to take away $ in the future... more $ than they could take away for the same investment elsewhere.

And why else would anyone add money to something?

Exactly. It's amazing to me some of the comments in this thread.

Unless it's a donation, people generally expect a return on their investment.

Of course. I agree totally with both of you on that point.

The key thing, though, is that just having a rich person investing in NZ is not necessarily a good thing for NZ. Some benefits will no doubt trickle down, which will be good for a couple of cleaners and gardeners, but NZ should be aiming for a better return than that in exchange for citizenship.

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networkn

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#1718193 10-Feb-2017 11:09

frankv:

Of course. I agree totally with both of you on that point.

The key thing, though, is that just having a rich person investing in NZ is not necessarily a good thing for NZ. Some benefits will no doubt trickle down, which will be good for a couple of cleaners and gardeners, but NZ should be aiming for a better return than that in exchange for citizenship.

Well, if that's the case, what is the standard you want met? How should it work?

Rikkitic

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#1718198 10-Feb-2017 11:18

networkn:

/me sighs

We covered this pages ago, you were unable to articulate how in this situation it was true, or any other for that matter, so you continue to make assertions based on your "feelings".

When you can show some actual rule that was broken as a sole result of his wealth, then you are entitled to make claims of favouritism, until then....

You sure do sigh a lot. I think I articulated my case perfectly well. I never ever asserted that any rule had been broken and I don't assert that now. What I said, and what I say again, is that if you have enough money to flash, you do not have to jump through the usual hoops that ordinary people without that money do. Money talks. The richer you are, the louder it speaks. I do not have an issue with this gentleman buying his way into the country. Money for residency is an accepted procedure and the rules do allow for that. Nothing wrong with offering the right to live here in exchange for some significant investment.

But, this gentleman was then given citizenship, apparently just because he wanted it, with no regard for the usual rules that are applied to everyone else. He didn't have to live here. He didn't even have to be here. All he had to do was put in an appearance at a local NZ representative where he was presumably grovelled to, cap in hand, while his passport was presented on a silver platter. Even Sam Morgan, who supported the deal, expressed reservations about the man not living here. I guess you can call that a lot of things. I call it citizenship for sale. If he can do it, presumably others can. New Zealand is now a first-world banana republic.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

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#1718251 10-Feb-2017 12:23

Rikkitic:

networkn:

/me sighs

We covered this pages ago, you were unable to articulate how in this situation it was true, or any other for that matter, so you continue to make assertions based on your "feelings".

When you can show some actual rule that was broken as a sole result of his wealth, then you are entitled to make claims of favouritism, until then....

You sure do sigh a lot. I think I articulated my case perfectly well. I never ever asserted that any rule had been broken and I don't assert that now. What I said, and what I say again, is that if you have enough money to flash, you do not have to jump through the usual hoops that ordinary people without that money do. Money talks. The richer you are, the louder it speaks. I do not have an issue with this gentleman buying his way into the country. Money for residency is an accepted procedure and the rules do allow for that. Nothing wrong with offering the right to live here in exchange for some significant investment.

But, this gentleman was then given citizenship, apparently just because he wanted it, with no regard for the usual rules that are applied to everyone else. He didn't have to live here. He didn't even have to be here. All he had to do was put in an appearance at a local NZ representative where he was presumably grovelled to, cap in hand, while his passport was presented on a silver platter. Even Sam Morgan, who supported the deal, expressed reservations about the man not living here. I guess you can call that a lot of things. I call it citizenship for sale. If he can do it, presumably others can. New Zealand is now a first-world banana republic.

Not quite true.

I'm quite sure he had to pass the same background checks and so on that anyone else does.

Additionally, the Minister acted on the advice of his officials. It's uncommon, certainly in New Zealand, for officials to give Ministers advice like that without reason given the OIA scrutiny that such advice will be subject to if a bored Dom Post reporter has nothing better to do after writing the latest on what cat is up which tree...

gsr

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#1718290 10-Feb-2017 13:04

1. Any good argument which involves the use of an ill-defined term requires a consensus on the definition of that term. Here it's "citizenship". What does that mean to everyone?

2. Should there be any ideals involved in governing a country other than the principles of free-market capitalism? Should we "let the market decide" who should be a citizen and who shouldn't?

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#1718308 10-Feb-2017 13:26

gsr:

1. Any good argument which involves the use of an ill-defined term requires a consensus on the definition of that term. Here it's "citizenship". What does that mean to everyone?

2. Should there be any ideals involved in governing a country other than the principles of free-market capitalism? Should we "let the market decide" who should be a citizen and who shouldn't?

Passports are like flags of convenience on ships.

Sometimes being able to pick and choose which you travel on is useful. Being able to choose which you flush and which you give to the terrorists who have taken your tourist bus hostage could be useful.

Beyond a certain level of earning, being able to choose which country you are domiciled in for tax is useful, assuming you are not wealthy enough to live on your super yacht and be domiciled nowhere for tax, of course, which is the ideal situation.

Rikkitic

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#1718891 12-Feb-2017 13:50

Anyone with an open mind about this (I guess that rules out a couple of people here) may want to read and listen to the following:

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday/audio/201832835/matt-nippert-uncovering-a-billionaire's-bolthole

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

MikeB4

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#1718897 12-Feb-2017 14:13

Rikkitic:

Anyone with an open mind about this (I guess that rules out a couple of people here) may want to read and listen to the following:

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday/audio/201832835/matt-nippert-uncovering-a-billionaire's-bolthole

really? not called for.

MileHighKiwi

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#1718899 12-Feb-2017 14:15

Rikkitic:

this gentleman was given citizenship, apparently just because he wanted it.

It would be odd to grant citizenship to someone that didn't want it.

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