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#1745970 22-Mar-2017 17:27

gzt:
toejam316: No one has advised me yet what actions that we're not taking that we should be are

I think that's the first time you've asked.

Luckily thoughts are free then - it's a question I posed earlier, inside a wall of text.

Anything I say is the ramblings of an ill informed, opinionated so-and-so, and not representative of any of my past, present or future employers, and is also probably best disregarded.

dejadeadnz

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#1746028 22-Mar-2017 19:57

frankv:

I don't know about violent crime in general. But the Dunedin Study is fairly clear that in domestic violence (a) women initiate it about as much as men, and (b) perpetrators are usually also victims.

In this context, labelling the male species [sic] as "shockingly violent" is neither morally responsible nor facing reality. Instead, it leads to males being locked up by default, skewing statistics, and perpetuating the myth. To add insult to injury, any number of TV campaigns and study groups and melodrama and exaggeration and white ribbons won't actually change things. And there's a whole industry that depends on this myth for funding.

I don't know what context that you need to establish that NZ males on average are indeed shockingly violent compared to NZ females. Anyone who cares to try will find out the truth very quickly. On the assumption that you genuinely don't know how to do it, let me help you. Go to nzdotstat.stats.govt.nz, then look for "justice" on the left side of the screen, then choose either calendar or fiscal year. I ran an inquiry based on adults convicted in court and showing the most serious offence on which they were sentenced, filtered by gender of the convicted, and selected "homicides and related offences", "acts intended to cause injury", "abduction, harassment and other offences against the person" and "robbery, extortion, and other related offences" and deliberately did not select anything to do with sexual assaults/rapes, knowing that such stats will likely overwhelmingly skew the numbers against males.

And guess what I found? Some "highlights" for the lovely NZ males include such stats:

In 2016, 50,294 males were sentenced (as their most serious offences) on crimes within these categories; 14,025 females were. I'll let you work out the proportions.
In 2015, the numbers were 49,318 and 14,018.
In fact, the proportions of males so sentenced compared to females are typically factors of 2 to 3 at least, at times many, many times more.

Nah, NZ males aren't shockingly violent compared to females. Keep pretending that this is a myth. Sorry for your butthurt.

dejadeadnz

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#1746031 22-Mar-2017 20:03

Rikkitic:

I find the tone of some of the comments here unfortunate. They trivialise the reality of sexual harassment and what a lot of women have to put up with. They also replay the tired old cliché’s about aggressive feminists. Some posters are like armchair generals pontificating on something they have no experience or real understanding of. There is also an element of arrogant dismissal in some comments.

The reality is that you have just described a bunch of socially regressive, most likely middle-aged males who are terribly butthurt by the truth lashing out. If you look at the "contributions" of some of the angry men on here and note their usual positions on vulnerable sectors of society like refugees, you'll see a correlation. And that correlation, I would suggest, tells one a lot.

tdgeek

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#1746042 22-Mar-2017 20:15

toejam316: But who is and isn't part of the problem? Nothing has been defined. As far as I can tell, this is all about in line with stopping 'the man' from 'keeping us down' - there's nothing of substance, and the only real impact I can make is to say to everyone I know "remember not to be a rapist!".

Edit - "black women" hang on. Are you talking about New Zealand? Because we don't have many "black" people here, unless you're a racist who calls Maori, Pacific Islanders, Indians, etc "the blacks". I think you're in the wrong country buddy

That's uncalled for. You know exactly what she means. If anyone refers to "blacks" ( I actually hate that word), it is clearly referring to African Americans. And that demographic is well known to do it hard. Ive seen it first hand.

toejam316

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#1746048 22-Mar-2017 20:23

tdgeek:
toejam316: But who is and isn't part of the problem? Nothing has been defined. As far as I can tell, this is all about in line with stopping 'the man' from 'keeping us down' - there's nothing of substance, and the only real impact I can make is to say to everyone I know "remember not to be a rapist!".

Edit - "black women" hang on. Are you talking about New Zealand? Because we don't have many "black" people here, unless you're a racist who calls Maori, Pacific Islanders, Indians, etc "the blacks". I think you're in the wrong country buddy

That's uncalled for. You know exactly what she means. If anyone refers to "blacks" ( I actually hate that word), it is clearly referring to African Americans. And that demographic is well known to do it hard. Ive seen it first hand.

But aren't we discussing this in the context of New Zealand? The black women bit is a globalised context. The point I was trying to make with dropping the collective non-white groups is that you're hardly drawing a reasonable comparison in the NZ context.

As for the other chaps above discussing the regressive no good middle aged angry old men - they're not going to change of you keep jabbing at them. They're just going to go ahead and write you off, just like you are them. To me it seems like a very non-progressive way to do things.

It's been an interesting thread so far, I'll give it that.

Anything I say is the ramblings of an ill informed, opinionated so-and-so, and not representative of any of my past, present or future employers, and is also probably best disregarded.

Rikkitic

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#1746054 22-Mar-2017 20:38

The description of dejadeadnz belongs to him, not me. My reference to black women was just an example to illustrate a point. Just because you experience racial discrimination once in your life does not mean you have any understanding at all of what it is like to experience it every day throughout your life. It does not mean a thing. The same applies to sexual discrimination. The fact that you have been the victim of it once does not mean you know what it is like to experience it every day.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

toejam316

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#1746190 23-Mar-2017 00:24

All I'm saying is that there are experiences you can use to reference and share severity of your experiences, as each individual has their own unique experiences, but a bit of common ground amongst them.

Also, I really, genuinely do want to have someone who understands this whole concept better explain the whole "rape-culture" thing and what we do to solve it, because like I said previously, it carries as much value to me as the phrase "murder-culture", and I have just as many solutions to solve murder culture, as I do to solve rape culture, at the moment (which boils down to get rid of people, they're no good).

Anything I say is the ramblings of an ill informed, opinionated so-and-so, and not representative of any of my past, present or future employers, and is also probably best disregarded.

Geektastic

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#1746283 23-Mar-2017 10:06

toejam316: All I'm saying is that there are experiences you can use to reference and share severity of your experiences, as each individual has their own unique experiences, but a bit of common ground amongst them. Also, I really, genuinely do want to have someone who understands this whole concept better explain the whole "rape-culture" thing and what we do to solve it, because like I said previously, it carries as much value to me as the phrase "murder-culture", and I have just as many solutions to solve murder culture, as I do to solve rape culture, at the moment (which boils down to get rid of people, they're no good).

I'd like to see some clarification as to whether this issue is - as suggested - somehow worse in NZ than it is in comparable countries. It would also be interesting to see whether this offending is proportionate across the various elements of society or disproportionate.

It would be equally interesting to see whether there has been any change in prevalence following the loosening of social morals and the increase (at least, apparent increase according to media chatter) and normalisation of things like Tinder and casual sex.

Fred99

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#1746290 23-Mar-2017 10:13

Geektastic:

It would be equally interesting to see whether there has been any change in prevalence following the loosening of social morals

That comment won you a beer.

toejam316

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#1746314 23-Mar-2017 11:10

Fred99:
Geektastic:

It would be equally interesting to see whether there has been any change in prevalence following the loosening of social morals

That comment won you a beer.

Sweet Jesus that is a long hotlink url.
Also, I agree - social and sexual liberalism isn't a major cause of this, although it does contribute to motivate some offenders who believe they're deserving of what they take, regardless of if it is given. The major cause has been and will always be those with psychological issues who operate outside social norms.

I'm sure similar offenders just got away with more without being reported in "the good old days".

Anything I say is the ramblings of an ill informed, opinionated so-and-so, and not representative of any of my past, present or future employers, and is also probably best disregarded.

Fred99

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#1746317 23-Mar-2017 11:19

Here's something possibly related to topic - WRT "culture" and sexism.

Fred99

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#1746322 23-Mar-2017 11:28

toejam316:

I'm sure similar offenders just got away with more without being reported in "the good old days".

Absolutely.

Apart from "victim blaming", there's also a problem of credibility of victims - exacerbated when there's a power imbalance.

Geektastic

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#1746330 23-Mar-2017 11:45

Fred99:

toejam316:

I'm sure similar offenders just got away with more without being reported in "the good old days".

Absolutely.

Apart from "victim blaming", there's also a problem of credibility of victims - exacerbated when there's a power imbalance.

And not helped where "I changed my mind afterwards" is reported and charged as "he raped me".

There have been several cases of that recently in the UK (and here too probably) and it does not help the credibility of genuine cases.

Rikkitic

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#1746341 23-Mar-2017 12:05

But what point does this make? Does the fact that some reports are exaggerated or falsified somehow make the genuine ones less important? Does it excuse not taking them entirely seriously? It still smacks of victim blaming. 'Oh we don't know if this girl was really raped or not because someone else once made a false statement in an entirely different case so I guess we will just give the attacker the benefit of the doubt.'

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

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#1746355 23-Mar-2017 12:26

Rikkitic: But what point does this make? Does the fact that some reports are exaggerated or falsified somehow make the genuine ones less important? Does it excuse not taking them entirely seriously? It still smacks of victim blaming. 'Oh we don't know if this girl was really raped or not because someone else once made a false statement in an entirely different case so I guess we will just give the attacker the benefit of the doubt.'

Unfortunately when it is a one on one situation with no witnesses, the law will likely give one party the benefit of the doubt.

I would not envy anyone investigating a 'drunk quickie' that could have been a 'too intoxicated to consent' or a 'she changed her mind the next morning' or a 'he really brassed me off so I'm going to make an accusation to get back at him'. Perhaps both parties should record the event, just in case? Oh wait, that's not a great idea either...

Perhaps the sci-fi films where a species has 'evolved' beyond traditional reproduction techniques did not get it so wrong after all!

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