Copper Services Investigation

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#3358610 29-Mar-2025 17:48

MichaelNZ:

If you tally up the road distance covered using Google maps it comes to around 13km they are going to have to bury that cable and that assuming they only run along one side of the road.

Would be interesting to know if thats a ducted area vs a direct bury area - if ducted, they can just pull the microduct/fiber through the existing duct.

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#3358617 29-Mar-2025 19:25

raytaylor:

Would be interesting to know if thats a ducted area vs a direct bury area - if ducted, they can just pull the microduct/fiber through the existing duct.

My guess would be direct bury. All these roads have existed and been rural residential for a long time so I doubt there are conduits for them to use.

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Handle9

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#3358619 29-Mar-2025 20:55

MichaelNZ:

raytaylor:

We should be clear
UFB funding was a loan, not a taxpayer grant.

The official number seems to be $1.75 billion of "government funding". Interesting the official position is biased towards promoting it as a rural network making specific mention of Haast, Ōwhango, Tuatapere, Eketāhuna and Opononi as well as images of seaside and rural locations.

The UFB project was financed by the government via interest free loans. That money wasn’t free for the government but was advanced by CFH to pay the LFCs to do the installation and pay it back via opex.

It’s by far the best example of a successful PPP in New Zealand.

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#3358620 29-Mar-2025 21:10

Handle9:

It’s by far the best example of a successful PPP in New Zealand.

Based on what has been achieved I'd say it was a good deal for taxpayers.

I have also written to our local MP advocating for another round of UFB funding but I won't be holding my breath. He is not known for being effective at anything beyond posting about his latest appearance at something soft.

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BMarquis

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#3358677 30-Mar-2025 10:21

MichaelNZ:

It seems so obvious.

In our area they already have the OLT (Optical Line Terminal) at the exchange which is the single most expensive component. So it won't take much to start rolling out that cable and stringing it up and then they can disconnect the DSL network and everyone is happy.

I think you have quite a few incorrect assumptions about both Norsewood and other fibre deployment areas.
Things are absolutely not as obvious or simple as you may think.

As an example - we do not have an OLT in Norsewood. And with regards to putting one there - My guess is that the OLT is unlikely to be the most expensive component.

Similar to what Ray said. If you get community involvement to share the cost and possibly the work involved, we have a process for that.
https://www.chorus.co.nz/residential/rural-and-regional

MichaelNZ

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#3358729 30-Mar-2025 11:48

BMarquis:

I think you have quite a few incorrect assumptions about both Norsewood and other fibre deployment areas.
Things are absolutely not as obvious or simple as you may think.

As an example - we do not have an OLT in Norsewood. And with regards to putting one there - My guess is that the OLT is unlikely to be the most expensive component.

This differs from what I have been told from multiple people including the installers.

In their case they specifically said they were installing UFB. To my understanding UFB only refers to the products: GPON, and XGS-PON (aka. Hyperfibre), and Bitsream 4 which is a non-PON service.

The quote for my address dropped by $40k after the RCG cellsite.

The vague quote for my "custom install" has the following components:

xxx meters of cable.
Something which I understand to be an optical splitter and a pit to put it in.

The obvious conclusion here is there is something in common.

I know a little about the paid option because I have looked into this. Also one of our clients got a paid install although I understand this was a network extension.

What I am posting is based on the sum total of my personal observations, experience and discussions with others in the industry who have had a small number of clients who have paid.

If you or someone from Chorus can clarify the situation with objective specifics this would be great.

In summary Norsewood is nothing different from some of the other places yourselves (or the other operators) have rolled out and the residents have gotten their "free" install.

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BMarquis

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#3358731 30-Mar-2025 12:32

While I wont be drawn into a discussion here about costs/charges/free/whatever.
A. Its not appropriate
B. that’s not my responsibility/area
C. I don't have visibility of the specifics of the previous quotes.

That aside - My understanding is that Norsewood exchange code is NWD.
There is no NWD OLT in the management system for OLTs.

We don’t have to serve a UFB service from the local exchange, so perhaps you would be fed from somewhere else. That's the cool thing about fibre - the reach is much better than copper and, therefore it provides options that might not have previously existed.

My, personal, opinions......

The quote for my address dropped by $40k after the RCG cellsite.

That sounds like a better situation than MANY other rural properties. I really hope you are considering if the cost now aligns with the personal value of fibre connectivity to you. Based on this discussion it sounds like that value is, at least subjectively, high.

In summary Norsewood is nothing different from some of the other places yourselves (or the other operators) have rolled out and the residents have gotten their "free" install.

It is different - Chorus has chosen not to roll out fibre in Norsewood. Maybe one day they will, maybe they won't.

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MichaelNZ

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#3358733 30-Mar-2025 13:05

Thanks for your contribution to this discussion.

BMarquis:

That aside - My understanding is that Norsewood exchange code is NWD.
There is no NWD OLT in the management system for OLTs.

It might be there is an OLT there but its not on the list because Norsewood is not a UFB area.

BMarquis:

I really hope you are considering if the cost now aligns with the personal value of fibre connectivity to you. Based on this discussion it sounds like that value is, at least subjectively, high.

It could end up going this way.

The marginal value I place on having UFB is somewhat less with the availability of VDSL. Hence my position (and I will be submitting based on this) is Chorus should keep VDSL operational until they get around to doing an area.

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#3358781 30-Mar-2025 17:22

Copper needs to go……. everyone agrees with that, what people don’t agree on is that WISP/Starlink/FWA is a suitable alternative which it far from it.

Any views expressed on these forums are my own and don't necessarily reflect those of my employer.

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#3358796 30-Mar-2025 19:21

nztim:

Copper needs to go……. everyone agrees with that, what people don’t agree on is that WISP/Starlink/FWA is a suitable alternative which it far from it.

Except when it is your only option. Then you make do with what you have.
That is why a lot of people jumped on WISP and 4G FWA in the beginning.

Then Starlink rocked the Rural internet community and I will say with good authority... some folks (including myself with my One NZ hat on) were pushing people to Starlink because we could not serve them over anything else and their copper was too far gone to be any worth.

Although due to reasons we shall not mention, Starlink shouldn't be an option unless you REALLY ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO.

FWA can work with antenna installs but this is really down to cell site configuration and tower load (I have seen plenty of incredible installs with fantastic speeds in rural FWA, but also seen an equal amount of installs with shit speeds, again due to conditions)

WISPs are expensive but support is usually good, speeds are good but they're certainly no match for Starlink.

If Fibre is not coming, and it matters to you, then you need to think about the address where you live and the potential money it will cost to get it there if you really choose to live there.

Ramblings from a mysterious lady who's into tech. Warning I may often create zingers.

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#3358803 30-Mar-2025 19:58

MaxineN:

WISPs are expensive but support is usually good, speeds are good but they're certainly no match for Starlink.

Its worse then that.

The whole WISP model where the ISP owns the network requires critical mass.

Typically this has been achieved through a combination of a near monopoly position outside the townships/villages, towns and cities; using xDSL and UFB clients to cross-subsidise the wireless network; and sweetheart (typically free in exchange) deals with land owners.

But courtesy of Starlink they have a massive problem and I am seeing this being discussed in industry forums. WISPs are loosing clients to Starlink and with those 2 out of 3 of the above points are under threat.

Already some have of them have changed their model and started to roll out their own fibre in townships like where we are. This is not UFB so people can't choose their ISP but it is fibre. But those who live in proper-rural areas... they have a problem. The WISP may keep serving them for now because their wireless networks are largely a sunk cost. But they are not going to get any upgrades. Nor is the WISP likely to ever run fibre to them.

Which only leaves Starlink.

We have plenty of insight into their modus operandi and attitudes to business.

There isn't an easy answer nor do I profess to have a solution for every address.

I think they should continue on with the UFB rollout to towns and townships like where we are, and once that is done, use these as hubs to push out into rural roads. This does not mean everyone gets fibre but the penetration should be higher then the 87% they currently have according to their own numbers.

Chorus and Tuatahi (aka. Ultrafast) have shown themselves capable of doing rural roads because both have done some already. I can't speak for the other LFC's because they are smaller and we have no clients on them which are outside of cities.

But right now its crystal clear Chorus want to rid themselves of the copper network by 2030 and I suspect with it any sort of obligation to continue the build independent of developers handing over big piles of cash.

Those who are in areas already covered will feel fine and those who are not will be forced onto RCG cellular wireless and Starlink. And with this the heyday of reasonably priced "flat rate" internet, large choice of ISP's and BYO CPE will be over for those of us currently covered by VDSL.

MaxineN:

If Fibre is not coming, and it matters to you, then you need to think about the address where you live and the potential money it will cost to get it there if you really choose to live there.

The amount we have been quoted is at the lower end because we are in the township and close to the exchange. I have heard of numbers a lot higher.

But it really is an un-equal - and I think dumb - way to build public infrastructure.

The first person has to pay pretty much the entire cost to connect themselves and everyone else around them.

Therefore there is a huge incentive to hold out for a "free" install. And Chorus has pushed this "free install" angle very hard.

So for anyone to say "go to your neighbours and share the cost" - it almost certainly isn't going to happen. VDSL works fine and they have even less incentive to chip in. They know full well its a "free install" because Chorus told everyone.

So if Chorus is allowed to pull the plug they will likely just kick up a stink then as I have seen happen over the PSTN. Because that's how rural places work.

I have done the numbers for here and VDSL is by far the major service. The only address who has Starlink is almost certainly having it paid for by (NZ government) and their address also has active VDSL. Most of the township is getting over 50Mbps with some over 100. Mine is circa 90Mbps.

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#3367599 26-Apr-2025 08:15

nztim:

Copper needs to go……. everyone agrees with that, what people don’t agree on is that WISP/Starlink/FWA is a suitable alternative which it far from it.

A high-level overview of the copper network being retired: https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/360665143/why-vital-internet-link-many-kiwis-could-soon-be-cut

Rikkitic

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#3367622 26-Apr-2025 10:48

My inexpert consumer point of view:

I am a pensioner living on a rural family farm surrounded by hills. I don’t know if copper still serves our area but in any case we are too far removed from the road for anything other than dial-up. As soon as it became available, we switched to 4G FWA. Although we are a long way from the only tower we could reach, at first we were able to get download speeds up to around 40 Mbps with a second antenna. But that soon began to deteriorate as traffic congestion on that tower increased. At the end we were back to dial-up speeds and sometimes no connection at all.

We were rescued by our local WISP. Solid download speeds of 30 Mbps, which is fine for our use case, which is mainly streaming. Our WISP is an exemplary provider and we have been happy customers ever since we signed up.

BUT … Our WISP in shining armour is our only option. If it ever goes broke, gets taken over by an evil empire, employs less helpful people, we are royally screwed. We don’t have a backup, other than (shudder) Starlink maybe.

We gladly pay $80 a month for our trouble-free Internet access and consider it a bargain. Our provider is super competent, helpful and professional. The service is reliable and we almost never have issues and when we do they are immediately fixed. We have no complaints at all.

But I do have nightmares of what would I do if this option ever ceased to exist. Even if fibre came to our road, which is doubtful, bridging the distance from there to the house would still cost a fortune I don't have.

That is what keeps me awake at night.

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#3367665 26-Apr-2025 14:09

I have had a great experience with Starlink in a rural area not served well by FWA, a WISP or UFB. I think it's an amazing company/service and can't think of why anyone would hesitate to install it if they can afford it.

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#3367732 26-Apr-2025 17:51

Rikkitic:

BUT … Our WISP in shining armour is our only option. If it ever goes broke, gets taken over by an evil empire, employs less helpful people, we are royally screwed. We don’t have a backup, other than (shudder) Starlink maybe.

Got a very similar situation with my parents. They were previously on a local WISP, but it had strict data caps and only 5 mbps download, so they switched to an FWA connection as soon as they could. But since the connection is delivered through the RCG, everyone seems to have the same (very limited, very expensive) plans, except for Spark who somehow have (at least according to our local WISP, who also offers RBI plans) some sort of sweetheart deal which lets them offer standard (semi urban) plans (i.e. unlimited data, reasonable price), but I hate to imagine if that disappears one day.

Also have noticed the congestion get a lot worse in the last few years - probably doesn't help that the tower is fed from a microwave link, so an outage on one tower seems to knock a whole bunch out.

Honestly, that's my main concern with copper disappearing. I just really hope that FWA providers aren't going to take the opportunity to stop investing in their rural networks and force consumers to either languish or rely on offshore satellite options (which potentially leaves you with another quasi-monopoly!) and also the potential for congestion to worsen further.

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