Warm / Dry / Clean houses - how should it be done in NZ?

Forums › Home Workshop DIY › Warm / Dry / Clean houses - how should it be done in NZ?

1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | ... | 11

11388 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2944951 21-Jul-2022 19:16

tweake:

Handle9:

Three quarters of NZ population lives in the North Island. It's uncommon for it to get really cold, certainly relative to European temperatures.

The housing stock is also very different with very different construction industries and cost bases.

The period you stay in a house doesn't effect an economic business case, the time value of money does. If the business case stacks up it will capitalise if you sell. Double glazing has a lot of benefits and should have always been mandated for new builds but retrofit is a different story.

i've had some cold times in central NI. i know Canadians who complain about the cold in northland. it gets cold enough. you also have to factor that current insulation standards are basically below half that of comparable overseas locations. given our high energy costs we should be world leaders in efficient buildings.

"economic business case" says it all. all about the profit when you sell the house and nothing to do with the social or human element. ie put up with the cold to make money.

the interesting thing happening at the moment is it looks like people are pulling out of building new homes, at the same time FHBers have reached their limits and can no longer afford to buy the houses. people may not be able to sell like the used to for quite some time to come. they may just have to stay in their homes and live with their "economic business case".

Nothing you have said addresses the reality that it's cheaper to heat a house with single glazing than retrofit double glazing.

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#2944952 21-Jul-2022 19:20

Handle9:

The period you stay in a house doesn't effect an economic business case,

it actually does. this is not $$ but human factors. if its short term, people don't care they put up with it. i've worked on houses with holes in them etc, owners don't care. to quote one "don't worry about we will be gone within 4 years".

its when people know they are going to be stuck with that house for a long time that they tend to make it their own. they make it comfortable for them. human factors not dollars.

if you have to spend 20+ years there the business case changes a huge amount.

Handle9

11388 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2944954 21-Jul-2022 19:23

tweake:

Handle9:

The period you stay in a house doesn't effect an economic business case,

it actually does. this is not $$ but human factors. if its short term, people don't care they put up with it. i've worked on houses with holes in them etc, owners don't care. to quote one "don't worry about we will be gone within 4 years".

its when people know they are going to be stuck with that house for a long time that they tend to make it their own. they make it comfortable for them. human factors not dollars.

if you have to spend 20+ years there the business case changes a huge amount.

It doesn't change the business case. It may make the home more comfortable but that doesn't have an economic payback.

The time value of money and opportunity cost are even more significant over a 20 year period.

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#2944956 21-Jul-2022 19:28

Handle9:

Nothing you have said addresses the reality that it's cheaper to heat a house with single glazing than retrofit double glazing.

yes/no. trouble is many people simply are not heating the house fully in first place, so they are not spending the full amount on heating. therefore it never makes a "business case".

its not until the house is upgraded that they actually get to heat the house fully for the same or less than what they where. considering many homes, even if fully insulated, are below the new standard, the only way to even get close to half decent insulation is double or even triple glazing (location depending).

its the same deal with my heat pumps. for what they cost i could have had resistance heating for 10+ years, the heat pumps fails the business case. but i would not be able to fully heat the house without going to heat pumps.

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#2944957 21-Jul-2022 19:29

Handle9:

. It may make the home more comfortable but that doesn't have an economic payback.

and thats my point right there. its all about making money off the house instead of living in it.

Handle9

11388 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2944958 21-Jul-2022 19:34

tweake:

Handle9:

. It may make the home more comfortable but that doesn't have an economic payback.

and thats my point right there. its all about making money off the house instead of living in it.

Nope. I can very easily maintain a single glazed house at 22 degrees. It requires more energy to do so than a double glazed house.

If my actual cost, taking into account the cost of capital and opportunity cost, of double glazing is more than the cost of just spending more on my energy bills then it doesn't make economic sense to do the project.

It's the same reason why most retrofit energy performance contracts top out at seven years simple payback.

Handle9

11388 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2944959 21-Jul-2022 19:36

tweake:

Handle9:

Nothing you have said addresses the reality that it's cheaper to heat a house with single glazing than retrofit double glazing.

yes/no. trouble is many people simply are not heating the house fully in first place, so they are not spending the full amount on heating. therefore it never makes a "business case".

its not until the house is upgraded that they actually get to heat the house fully for the same or less than what they where. considering many homes, even if fully insulated, are below the new standard, the only way to even get close to half decent insulation is double or even triple glazing (location depending).

its the same deal with my heat pumps. for what they cost i could have had resistance heating for 10+ years, the heat pumps fails the business case. but i would not be able to fully heat the house without going to heat pumps.

Of course you could fully heat your house using resistive heaters. There's nothing mystical about using the refrigeration cycle, it's just a source of heat.

Sharesies kids

Free kids accounts - trade shares and funds (NZ, US) with Sharesies (affiliate link).

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#2944962 21-Jul-2022 19:48

Handle9:

Of course you could fully heat your house using resistive heaters.

its actually borderline. even northland i would max out the circuits. many other places simply could not run enough heaters.

but not quite the point i was making, because people simply don't. i have never ever seen anyone ever use enough resistive heaters to heat a home. kiwis don't heat homes.

sure you could heat a house fine without double glazing and for cheaper (in the short term), but most simply don't. its not until they have insulated, double glazed etc that they actually heat a home properly.

Handle9

11388 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2944963 21-Jul-2022 19:59

tweake:

Handle9:

Of course you could fully heat your house using resistive heaters.

its actually borderline. even northland i would max out the circuits. many other places simply could not run enough heaters.

but not quite the point i was making, because people simply don't. i have never ever seen anyone ever use enough resistive heaters to heat a home. kiwis don't heat homes.

sure you could heat a house fine without double glazing and for cheaper (in the short term), but most simply don't. its not until they have insulated, double glazed etc that they actually heat a home properly.

My NZ home has a flued gas fire in the living areas, running off LPG, and electric heaters in the bedroom. It's a modern house but single glazed. It was reasonably expensive to heat.

We kept it at a fairly constant 21 degrees all winter as it kept us well. To double glaze and install heat pumps didn't make any economic sense, it was cheaper to just pay the heating bill.

Now I'm in the Middle East I'm going though a similar exercise. The AC's in my house are 15 years old. They work fine and maintain the house at 24 degrees but it may be worth upgrading to more modern inverter units. Given my power bills in summer it will probably make sense but I'll do the calculation and only do it if there's actually a benefit.

I'm significantly more familiar with HVAC than most people and my approach is very rational. This is what most businesses do when they do an energy efficiency project. They have a hurdle rate and if the simple payback above that they won't do the project.

neb

11294 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2944965 21-Jul-2022 20:02

Handle9:
If my actual cost, taking into account the cost of capital and opportunity cost, of double glazing is more than the cost of just spending more on my energy bills then it doesn't make economic sense to do the project.

And that pretty much sums up US political thinking, "if we can't make money off it we won't do it". As opposed to the European form, "this is the right thing to do even if it costs us a bit".

timmmay

20579 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2944966 21-Jul-2022 20:04

We mostly did the windows because the old ones needed painting too often, leaked a bit of air, and were ugly. uPVC double glazing is lower maintenance and the house did feel warmer afterwards, even though we heat the place well.

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#2944967 21-Jul-2022 20:08

it only makes sense if you only look at the dollars and that most people are not going to be there long enough to get the use out of it.

why spend 20k on windows when spending 20k on a kitchen increases the house prices and make you money.

why spend 10k on heat pump when you will move in a few years time.

so most people will put a new kitchen in, wear a jumper and clean up the mold.

thats the nz situation, housing is profit motivated and average length of time in a house is short. so most things will ALWAYS fail the business case.

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#2944969 21-Jul-2022 20:16

Handle9:

Now I'm in the Middle East I'm going though a similar exercise. The AC's in my house are 15 years old. They work fine and maintain the house at 24 degrees but it may be worth upgrading to more modern inverter units. Given my power bills in summer it will probably make sense but I'll do the calculation and only do it if there's actually a benefit.

I'm significantly more familiar with HVAC than most people and my approach is very rational. This is what most businesses do when they do an energy efficiency project. They have a hurdle rate and if the simple payback above that they won't do the project.

but the twist here is that hvac would be near end of life anyway. now the human factor is if you can put up without it when it breaks down, especially if there is a long wait for a replacement. if you actually add the human factor it could mean replace it right now so you don't risk being without it.

money is only one reason to do something.

Handle9

11388 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2944970 21-Jul-2022 20:18

tweake:

thats the nz situation, housing is profit motivated and average length of time in a house is short. so most things will ALWAYS fail the business case.

Not at all. Ceiling and subfloor insulation/vapour barriers have strong business cases. In many cases more efficient heating does as well. They also help attract a reasonable premium over houses that don't have insulation and efficient heating.

Double glazing in a new build makes complete sense - the incremental cost makes it largely a no brainer.

Handle9

11388 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2944971 21-Jul-2022 20:22

tweake:

Handle9:

Now I'm in the Middle East I'm going though a similar exercise. The AC's in my house are 15 years old. They work fine and maintain the house at 24 degrees but it may be worth upgrading to more modern inverter units. Given my power bills in summer it will probably make sense but I'll do the calculation and only do it if there's actually a benefit.

I'm significantly more familiar with HVAC than most people and my approach is very rational. This is what most businesses do when they do an energy efficiency project. They have a hurdle rate and if the simple payback above that they won't do the project.

but the twist here is that hvac would be near end of life anyway. now the human factor is if you can put up without it when it breaks down, especially if there is a long wait for a replacement. if you actually add the human factor it could mean replace it right now so you don't risk being without it.

money is only one reason to do something.

Why would it be near the end of life? You can just replace failed compressors or fans, they are readily available and they aren't excessively expensive.

Edit: I agree that money is only one reason to do something. I disagree with the premise that it always makes sense to do things like retrofit double glazing. It really doesn't.

1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | ... | 11