EV (electric vehicle) News & Discussion

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › EV (electric vehicle) News & Discussion

1 | ... | 527 | 528 | 529 | 530 | 531 | 532 | 533 | 534 | 535 | 536 | 537 | ... | 725

8218 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

2degrees

Lifetime subscriber

#2963411 5-Sep-2022 11:43

*Shrug* I mean, I've had to wait while a ute driver did multiple three-point turns to get around a downtown carpark building. Granted they aren't designed with airy spaciousness in mind, but when the ute is too big to actually be used in a public space, it's too big.

iPad Pro 11" + iPhone 15 Pro Max + 2degrees 4tw!

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

Scott3

3963 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2963442 5-Sep-2022 12:35

On the F-150 lightning Ford has absolutely hit it out of the park with this vehicle design.

The 400L Frunk, with level loading in particular. This is in the same ballpark as an entire Tesla model 3 boot. And it will be especially useful in the USA where many people seem to prefer to keep their wellside bed's open. (unlike NZ where the fitment of a canopy / hard lid / tonneau cover is widespread). Regardless this adds great versatility to the vehicle, having a secure, dry space to put stuff, regardless of what is going on at the back end. And when heavily loaded, having some load area up front will allow for some heavy stuff to be relocated their to improve weight balance of the vehicle.

Ford has done very well to keep the weight of the 131kWh usable pack version down to 3100kg kerb. It's a very big car, and a very big battery pack.

Technofreak:

A good explanation of why electric Utes won't be in widespread use in the near future in OZ. There are very strong parallels for New Zealand too.

https://youtu.be/qIlpHWo5uZo

I'm not fond of the comedy.

That said he is reasonably smart, but is fairly obviously that examples are cherry picked to suit a an outcome that his viewers will resonate with.

The guy has run a Kona electric for quite some time, so isn't anti EV.

On the F150 Lightning, the top spec (USD 90,874) is discussed, while ignoring that the starting price of that car is USD 39,974 (that version does have a smaller battery).

That said, there is no way EV utes are going to be cheap. I am picking at least a $60,000 premium over a similar (non china brand) diesel ute for something with AWD and a cira 120kWh pack.

On weight's, the F-150 lightning is compared directly with Hilux etc, without comment that a lot of this weight will be due to it being huge, rather than the powertrain.

Also on weight, diminishing law or returns is mentioned with the energy used to lug around heavy battery packs. Actually weight isn't as big of a deal as it is made out to be in EV's for energy use. It's not like it needs to fly, so more weight just adds a touch or rolling resistance. Regen breaking gets back a decent chunk of the extra energy needed to accelerate a heaver vehicle when you show down. Break wear isn't a big issue in EV's. But tires absolutely are A very heavy, very powerfull EV will chew through tires.

The use case examples seemed pritty extreme too. Obviously those towing a 2,800kg caravan for hundreds of km's through the outback, and who insist on doing so at 112km/h would be poorly served by the lightning EV. But a use case like towing the boat from Brisbane to Byron bay would be quite workable.

We are at the eairly adopter stage still, and the F-150 Lighting, rivian r1t etc are first generation mainstream EV utes.

Should also note a lot of the stuff in the piece does not apply to NZ.

We have a 90km/h towing speed limit, you will get a lot more range out of an EV at 90km/h than the 112km/h test speed used in the USA.
Our country is long and skinny, so very long distance travel tends to be along a limited number of routes.
We already have a sweet charging network. 50kW chargers every 80km or so over the bulk of our main routes's, and we already have three 300kW multi head charging stations live, with nine more in the planning stage.
Camper-vans seem more popular than caravans in NZ

There also are going to be a couple of issues in NZ:

Few of our fast chargers are set up for pull through charging. Unhitching a large trailer is quite a chore.
We have a 3500kg weight limit on light vehicles. A high spec ranger is already 3350kg GVM. Basically zero chance of getting a pure EV version under this. Over 3500kg you need a COF & you get a 90km/h max speed limit. This will make such a vehicle very unattractive to buyers.

Scott3

3963 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2963462 5-Sep-2022 12:47

SaltyNZ:

*Shrug* I mean, I've had to wait while a ute driver did multiple three-point turns to get around a downtown carpark building. Granted they aren't designed with airy spaciousness in mind, but when the ute is too big to actually be used in a public space, it's too big.

"too big to actually be used in a public space"

In that case it seems it was too big to be used conveniently, rather than used at all.

Should note that vehicles like the Hyundai Staria Van don't fit in the Auckland downtown carpark (it's too tall). Obviously that makes it too big for that car-park, but not too big in general as the owner may visit that area, or may simply park elsewhere.

shk292

2853 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2963548 5-Sep-2022 16:54

Here's where I struggle with EVs. I recently very nearly bought an EV (BYD), with deposit paid and colour chosen but for a couple of reasons (not related to it being an EV) pulled the plug before purchase. I then looked around at what other EVs are on offer and found the Kia Niro Plus, which I like the look of. However, when you look at the price difference between the HEV and EV versions of this car - and the two versions are otherwise very similar - it's very difficult to make the EV stack up financially. Here's my reasoning:
- Purchase price (after rebate) is $57.3k for EV, $34.9k for HEV. So if you assume 5% cost of capital and 10% depreciation, cost of ownership for the first year is $8.6k and $5.2k respectively, or a premium of $3.3k for the EV
- Running costs assuming 15k km per year, 4l / 100km for the HEV @ $3 per litre and 16kW / 100km @15c per kWh for the EV come to $1800 for the HEV and $360 for the EV. I'll ignore servicing costs because the BYD experience shows that they are not negligible for EVs; also my current Kia has servicing included in the purchase price. I'll also ignore any road duty that may be payable in future on an EV. So there's a $1.4k saving in running costs per year by going EV

If you look at the overall costs, I would be incurring an extra $3.3k ownership cost in order to save $1.4k on running costs - or a net $1.9K annual cost premium to run the EV. My conclusion is that an HEV makes more sense for my requirements at present. It's not as green, but we will be replacing a 10l/100km car with a 4l/100km HEV so we're achieving over half of the benefit.

alasta

6701 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Subscriber

#2963552 5-Sep-2022 17:11

I have done similar analysis with exactly the same conclusions.

There are a lot of factors that influence the financial viability so for some people it will work, but the capital outlay really needs to come down by at least another $15k before it starts to work financially for most people.

lchiu7

6470 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

#2963567 5-Sep-2022 17:38

I actually thought about PHEV's, specifically the Ford Escape, before buying the ATTO3. My intitial rationale was while the PHEV would be running on battery most of the time fir the daily runs my wife does, and we could charge it each night, we would still have to deal with the maintenance that an ICE imposes.

So moved away from that to pure EV and I drove a few and almost pulled the trigger on an EV6 until my wife found it a bit tricky to drive down our driveway and park in the garage it being quite large. The Niro EV looked like a possbility butz it seemed a bit too expensive for what it provided, especially when compared with its older brother the EV6.

Then I saw the ATTO3 and spec wise, price wise it met all my needs. And my wife, after viewing umpteen videos also liked it so we got it. Our motivation wasn't about lowering running costs though that is a benefit, but we needed a new car and we might as well do our small part for the planet.

MarkH67

517 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2963571 5-Sep-2022 18:06

I'd have to agree - financially the new EVs are still too expensive.

I bought a 2015 Nissan Leaf in 2017 and found it to be a great car to own & use. It saved me a LOT of money in running costs and after 5 years I was probably no worse off than if I had bought a 2nd hand Toyota Corolla instead. The main negative for me was that the Leaf wasn't a great choice for long trips, but I gained so much using it for the daily commute that it was worth owning. The financials are better when you buy a 2-yr-old Japanese import than a new car because $21k is a lot less than $60k.

I like the new Kona and the Model 3 and several other new EVs, but it would be really hard to save enough on running costs to offset the extra spent to buy any of these cars. EVs will make good economic sense soon enough, but not today. Obviously there are people that would spend much more on a new car (like a BMW or Audi) and could buy an EV for similar money (or less even) and be better off financially, I wish I was in that sort of financial position. Currently for most people only 2nd hand cars make good financial sense and the longer range EVs are still carrying too high a price even on the 2nd hand market.

Equinox IT

Cloud spending continues to surge globally, but most organisations haven’t made the changes necessary to maximise the value and cost-efficiency benefits of their cloud investments. Download the whitepaper From Overspend to Advantage now.

HarmLessSolutions

969 posts

Ultimate Geek

Subscriber

#2963574 5-Sep-2022 18:10

Another factor to sway your decision between a BEV and a PHEV is that hybrid technology's only real purpose is to increase the range of a vehicle, otherwise why would you bother lugging around an ICE. As battery tech improves and most EV's range satisfies customers' expectations of their real life requirements and pricing of BEVs nears parity with ICEs (and PHEVs even sooner) hybrids will become a redundant concept and their residual value will evaporate.

shk292's earlier post explicitly ignores RUCs but they will arrive for EVs (and hybrids) within the next few years and in order to plug the loophole that hybrids make in that tax I would suggest that all vehicles will pay RUCs on a distance travelled basis. That will be the last nail in hybrids' coffin as far as I can see and I definitely wouldn't be a hybrid owner when this RUC change is announced/implemented. BEVs' energy costs are low enough for RUCs to be palatable and it is likely that at least initially they will be charged at a preferentially low rate for EVs as an ongoing incentive. Hybrids are unlikely to enjoy this advantage IMO.

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

SaltyNZ

8218 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

2degrees

Lifetime subscriber

#2963579 5-Sep-2022 18:44

shk292:

If you look at the overall costs, I would be incurring an extra $3.3k ownership cost in order to save $1.4k on running costs - or a net $1.9K annual cost premium to run the EV.

For us it's no contest; we do anywhere up to 4000km a month depending on what's going on. We've put 21,000km on the Tesla in the five months since getting it at the beginning of March. There's no way we could afford not to have an EV.

iPad Pro 11" + iPhone 15 Pro Max + 2degrees 4tw!

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

shk292

2853 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2963598 5-Sep-2022 19:15

SaltyNZ:For us it's no contest; we do anywhere up to 4000km a month depending on what's going on. We've put 21,000km on the Tesla in the five months since getting it at the beginning of March. There's no way we could afford not to have an EV.

That's serious kms! I used to do 20k per year before Covid brought on flexible working and I wouldn't want to do more than that

An EV is a no-brainer for that sort of usage, plus you get the pleasure of driving a Tesla

everettpsycho

614 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2963602 5-Sep-2022 19:19

For us the ev justification was more about what ev we got. It eventually boiled down to a leaf would pay for itself, an MG/BYD wouldn't. The cost saving was getting an ev at all, any ev, is huge. But doubling the price to go from the 30kwh leaf to a 50kwh suv would only help us save more by allowing public AC chargers and the charger at my office to be higher than our usage to reach those chargers. So $20k saves us $10 a day, $40k saves us $12 a day. We just couldn't justify that money for that little return so got the leafs. At that much difference in price we can hire a car for really long journeys if we needed one.

Batman

Mad Scientist
29760 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2963812 6-Sep-2022 10:19

SaltyNZ:

shk292:

If you look at the overall costs, I would be incurring an extra $3.3k ownership cost in order to save $1.4k on running costs - or a net $1.9K annual cost premium to run the EV.

For us it's no contest; we do anywhere up to 4000km a month depending on what's going on. We've put 21,000km on the Tesla in the five months since getting it at the beginning of March. There's no way we could afford not to have an EV.

long may our power prices stay low

UK has gone up 500% vs pre covid

and this year alone up 300%

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/sep/05/a-crisis-is-coming-for-uk-energy-prices-and-this-is-what-has-to-be-done

SaltyNZ

8218 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

2degrees

Lifetime subscriber

#2963813 6-Sep-2022 10:24

Batman:

long may our power prices stay low

UK has gone up 500% vs pre covid

and this year alone up 300%

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/sep/05/a-crisis-is-coming-for-uk-energy-prices-and-this-is-what-has-to-be-done

Indeed. We're far less dependent on fossil fuels - we average around 85% renewable generation - so that sort of thing should affect us much less. At the moment we're up around 94% with all the rain!

EDIT: accidentally a word

iPad Pro 11" + iPhone 15 Pro Max + 2degrees 4tw!

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

wellygary

8312 posts

Uber Geek

#2963814 6-Sep-2022 10:30

SaltyNZ:

Indeed. We're far less dependent on fossil fuels - we average around 85% renewable generation - so that sort of thing should affect us much less. At the moment we're up around 94% with all the rain!

+ our Natural gas supply is totally domestic with no exposure to global prices (we don't export gas so there is no international fungibility)

LPG on the other hand is pretty exposed to internationally pricing, so BBQing this year is gonna be expensive...

alasta

6701 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Subscriber

#2963834 6-Sep-2022 11:08

SaltyNZ:

For us it's no contest; we do anywhere up to 4000km a month depending on what's going on. We've put 21,000km on the Tesla in the five months since getting it at the beginning of March. There's no way we could afford not to have an EV.

That sounds like a good use case for an EV.

In my case I only do 10,000km per year and really only use the car for trips out of town. Plus I can't charge at home.

People need to really think about what suits their needs best. My plan is to buy another petrol car to get me through the next five years and then hopefully there will be some more affordable electric offerings from the mainstream Japanese and Korean marques.

1 | ... | 527 | 528 | 529 | 530 | 531 | 532 | 533 | 534 | 535 | 536 | 537 | ... | 725