EV (electric vehicle) News & Discussion

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212 posts

Master Geek

#3325819 29-Dec-2024 13:06

tweake:

i have to ask why bother?

you would have to be home with the car for starters

<snip>

also if your out of power for a day, so what. you have your secondary cooking/heating/etc. its not a big deal to be without power. having your car fueled up (especially with the shorter range ev's) is more important as you can evacuate if required, or go to work, or go shopping etc.

Each to their own. Your circumstances, and must have requirements, are not the same as mine.

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Jase2985

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#3325885 29-Dec-2024 13:44

tweake:

i have to ask why bother?

you would have to be home with the car for starters

<snip>

also if your out of power for a day, so what. you have your secondary cooking/heating/etc. its not a big deal to be without power. having your car fueled up (especially with the shorter range ev's) is more important as you can evacuate if required, or go to work, or go shopping etc.

If someone is home from 0700-0830 and 1700-2100 during most power companies peak power periods, and when there is not a lot of solar why not use your vehicle to offset that peak power cost? its likelt when the hot water is reheating after the morning showers, when you are preparing dinner, reheating your house for the evening, then come 2100 when you go back to night rates, you can charge your car for the following day.

For me i use about 35% battery in my commute so i would have about 55% (leave a little in reserve), and even with an 87% SOH i would have 18kWh of power available to use at home. while still being able to charge the car for the following day. for others it might be less based on their vehicle or their charging ability at home. Offsetting $.24 power with power brought for $.11 makes sense if you can do it say 10kWh per day over a year thats $474.5 per year saved.

Show me where you can get 40kWh of batteries installed and also services your daily commute for less than $20k. You already need a vehicle so why not use it for more than just the commute.

HarmLessSolutions

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Ultimate Geek

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#3325888 29-Dec-2024 14:01

As V2X/V2G becomes a reality in the coming year there will be plenty of EV owners who will find out the realities of whether it will or won't work in their particular situation.There's going to be some interesting discussions I'm sure.

This article looks promising in that an EV that officially doesn't have bidirectional functionality seems to be able to serve in a V2G/V2H capacity with some additional hardware and effort.

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#3325909 29-Dec-2024 15:01

fastbike:

Each to their own. Your circumstances, and must have requirements, are not the same as mine.

thats kinda the point.

Jase2985:

If someone is home from 0700-0830 and 1700-2100

again thats kinda the point.

your asking the public to spend money to enable a system so a minor amount of people can have a "nice to have". and that "nice to have" is rapidly becoming redundant as home battery and solar costs decrease.

it was a nice way of promoting ev sales back when batteries where expensive. power companies are doing their own storage systems so have no need for consumer distributed storage.

so buy your own battery, enjoy all the extra benefits that brings, so the rest of us don't have to pay for your system that we will never use. i suspect in 5-10 years no one will care about V2X.

Jase2985

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#3325960 29-Dec-2024 15:12

if home battery price decrease, what else decreases.... vehicle batteries

tweake:your asking the public to spend money to enable a system

What is the public having to spend money on here? its in the next edition of the regulations, which gets updated every 4 or so years anyways.

Everything in this world is an IF, if this happens then that, and to go back to your favourite subject, if you insulate your home better you save on your heating costs.

tweake:so the rest of us don't have to pay for your system that we will never use

where is this FUD coming from? If you are going to make a post like that, back it up with something. No one is asking for anyone to pay for anything here, we are asking for the regulation which is already coming to be adopted so it becomes feasible and eligible to do.

tweake

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Uber Geek

#3325969 29-Dec-2024 16:02

its more cost for the regulation. even if they are doing it, the longer it takes the more it costs.

its also more cost for the power co's side of it, which is part of it. ie powerco's using the car battery to help supply the grid. if they get forced into that, odds are they will pass that cost onto the public via power prices. they are doing their own storage, they don't need or want to use consumers.

the fud is just understanding what mass market joe blog public wants/needs instead of minor market fanboys want. most people will put up with no power in the house, as the yare used to it and prepared for it. having the cars fuel tank drained they are not used to and will be very much against. having a car tied to the house is not what mass market wants and eventually cheap house batteries will simply displace any idea of V2X.

average people will happily pay reasonable prices for a battery system for their solar, and get all the other benefits including pay back, so they don't have to have the cars fuel tank drained.

Jase2985

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#3325982 29-Dec-2024 17:24

tweake:

its more cost for the regulation. even if they are doing it, the longer it takes the more it costs.

If you are complaining about the cost how much is it? is it anything extra? its a AS/NZS Standard, i suspect NZ hasnt had much imput on the standard

tweake:

its also more cost for the power co's side of it, which is part of it. ie powerco's using the car battery to help supply the grid. if they get forced into that, odds are they will pass that cost onto the public via power prices. they are doing their own storage, they don't need or want to use consumers.

Instead of just spouting what looks/sounds like crap, back your argument up with evidence or example. What extra cost is the lines company going to occur over and above what they already have to go through for battery and inverters for solar?

At the small scale we are talking about it will they will bearly even notice anything.

tweake:

the fud is just understanding what mass market joe blog public wants/needs instead of minor market fanboys want. most people will put up with no power in the house, as the yare used to it and prepared for it. having the cars fuel tank drained they are not used to and will be very much against. Having a car tied to the house is not what mass market wants and eventually cheap house batteries will simply displace any idea of V2X.

Tell me what they want or need then, as you seem to know the answer to everything.
How many people put up with no power in the house? SFA, it will only be in a power outage that this will impact people and then those with batteries, it will highly depend on how they have them installed/setup if they can operate off grid in a power outage, this is an extra cost to the consumer to set this up. For example, i would be lucky to have 1 power outage a year that last more than 30 mins, and maybe a couple that last minutes while they reroute the power. i suspect the majority of NZ are similar and wouldnt necessarily need the extra 1-2k outlay to have an UPS/EPS for their house for the small times they would lose power.

People who have EV's already have their cars tied to the house, as that's how you charge them. You get home and if you plan to charge it you plug it in, then when you want to go somewhere you unplug it. Will this affet how your houses power is covered in V2G etc, absolutely, but that's something you as the user has to be aware of.

tweake:

average people will happily pay reasonable prices for a battery system for their solar, and get all the other benefits including pay back, so they don't have to have the cars fuel tank drained.

A quote like this clearly shows you do not or have not worked through all the different ways this works, or how much actual storage most modern EV's actually have.

Yesterday i used 14kWh from the grid, all of that was off-peak, i sold back 21kWh to the grid for a net outlay of $-.07, ie the power company owes me money.
On a random winter's day in June, i used 41.9kWh from the grid and sold back 7.3kWh. Of that 41.8kWh, 24.95kWh was on night rate, and 16.96kWh was daytime.

I used 1kWh between 0700 and 0830, and 7.54kWh between 1700 and 2100. So 8.5kWh that could be covered by the car, if i worked office hours. 8kWh in a car with an effective 34.4kWh in my case (2018 Leaf) is 25% of the battery, less than what i would drive in a day, as i normally use 33-35% per day driving to work and doing errands. That's 60% used from the battery can be recharged at night before i would need to use the car again in the morning.

Is it going to work for everyone, No, i have never claimed it would, would it work for a decent chunk of the country? The answer is likely yes, as most new EV's have 60kWh+ batteries and most people aren't driving 100's of Km per day. It means those people don't need to buy a 10-20kWh battery to cover their use.

Are there other ways to do it? Yes, like charge from solar during the day and cover your peak and night power and rinse and repeat. There are many ways to skin this cat. But to totally dismiss it is a word I'm not going to use on here.

May as well put the car battery to use for more than the couple of hours you use to drive it per day.

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tweake

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Uber Geek

#3325985 29-Dec-2024 17:55

Jase2985:

How many people put up with no power in the house? SFA,

until recent years, everyone. even today, its almost everyone. your basic assumption of people is completely wrong and your argument is based off that incorrect assumption.

a house going without power for a time, is pretty NORMAL. what scares most people more, is loosing transport. sacrificing transport for housing is a negative not a positive. you tell people your new ev comes with a negative and people will look elsewhere. it makes no difference if its technically not true, its the perception that counts.

this is the difference between fanboys and mass market. most people here care about technical details, we love tech stuff, but mass market does not. they want everything to be the same or better. they don't want to buy something and have a negative like a decrease in battery charge because there was a power cut last night. not getting charged is bad, but a decrease is an evil sin.

a house with no power is an inconvenience that we are used to, risking loosing transport (real or imagined) is a disaster.

Jase2985

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#3326000 29-Dec-2024 18:50

tweake:

until recent years, everyone. even today, its almost everyone. your basic assumption of people is completely wrong and your argument is based off that incorrect assumption.

Im sorry but you are 100% wrong there. Look at your local facebook page when the power goes out and the issues it causes for people. if people know its going to be out for a little while its fine but days nope people dont have a bar of it.

but then this is not super relevant anyway as i mentioned in the rest of that reply which you failed to address. Most people aren't getting home batteries to cover power outages, and the same is true for V2G its to offset their energy and reduce their power bill as their primary measure of doing it, backup power is a secondary bonus.

But hey you know what everyone wants

tweake:

a house going without power for a time, is pretty NORMAL. what scares most people more, is loosing transport. sacrificing transport for housing is a negative not a positive. you tell people your new ev comes with a negative and people will look elsewhere. it makes no difference if its technically not true, its the perception that counts.

this is the difference between fanboys and mass market. most people here care about technical details, we love tech stuff, but mass market does not. they want everything to be the same or better. they don't want to buy something and have a negative like a decrease in battery charge because there was a power cut last night. not getting charged is bad, but a decrease is an evil sin.

a house with no power is an inconvenience that we are used to, risking loosing transport (real or imagined) is a disaster.

I have never said anything has to be sacrificed, you clearly haven't read anything I've typed out. its easy to set schedules on when it can discharge and charge, and based on known usage and daily patterns, it's easy to ensure you cover transport as well as covering house usage. It comes with the territory of having an EV.

If there was a power cut most nights those with EV's are screwed if they didn't get enough charge, as that's when the majority of them charge so it's literally no different. no different to waking up with a flat battery on an ICE vehicle.

You are one of those naysayers that was there popooing cars when they first came about. You are doing the same with this. there are solutions to pretty much everything you have said already available.

I think you need to jog on from this conversation as its all negative and half of what you are saying has nothing to back it up or is just flat out incorrect.

tweake

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Uber Geek

#3326017 29-Dec-2024 20:44

Jase2985:

Im sorry but you are 100% wrong there. Look at your local facebook page when the power goes out and the issues it causes for people. if people know its going to be out for a little while its fine but days nope people dont have a bar of it.

but then this is not super relevant anyway as i mentioned in the rest of that reply which you failed to address. Most people aren't getting home batteries to cover power outages, and the same is true for V2G its to offset their energy and reduce their power bill as their primary measure of doing it, backup power is a secondary bonus.

o sure facebook is the source of accurate info 🤣 people have put up with power cuts since electricity was discovered. a few moaners on Facebook is hardly "fact".

they are not getting batteries to to cover power outages (or ev's for that matter), not at todays prices thats for sure. that why i said low cost batteries. prices are coming down and solar is continuing to improve. the lower the price of home generation and storage the less requirement for using the car to power the house or grid. thats why i say, give it 10 years and V2X will be a dead idea as there will be no need to do it.

mass market wants simple. no calculating range, or home usage and range anxiety is still a thing even when its not. they don't want to be caught out with no transport. a house without power is annoying but they do it every year (multiple times a year). as home solar and storage come down in price it becomes highly attractive to have the house power the car, not the other way around.

trouble is ev fanboys talk so much crap, which becomes off putting for mass market buyers. its been nice having them shut up for the last few years and funny enough ev sales around the world are increasing as is the tech. let the ev tech sell the ev. home solar and storage will continue to improve and fix some of the issues with ev's. try not to sabotage that by promoting a hack solution. the days of trying to sell ev's by promoting V2X are over.

[Mod edit (MF): FUG breach, company name]

Dingbatt

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#3326019 29-Dec-2024 20:48

Any chance this thrilling discussion on strategic power supply issues could be split off to its own thread?

Then maybe this one could get back to EV News and Discussion.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

johno1234

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Uber Geek

#3326076 29-Dec-2024 21:26

EVs have enough battery to keep most people going all week on a full charge plus they can drive to a charger. A house without some sort of battery is unworkable for most people after one day of no hot water, cooking, internet, refrigeration or lighting.