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Rikkitic
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  #3221909 23-Apr-2024 18:29
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Handle9:

 

If you are making the claim that it's a worthwhile policy but we can't measure any improvement then you are back to doing policy by feels. It's as silly as the law and order nuts who claim that longer sentences will automatically reduce crime.

 

The policy would have had an expected outcome otherwise it should never have been approved. What is it's effectiveness in acheiving that outcome? That is what should be considered if we are taking an evidence based approach.

 

 

I think you are missing the point here. Even at its worst, even with no justification whatsoever, feeding kids still feeds them. That is a bottom line and it is worthwhile as hell. It is not like the money is being diverted to something like roads.

 

Maybe it isn't as effective as something else. Maybe the money could be better used elsewhere. But until then at least it is doing something worthwhile. No way is this equivalent to longer sentences reducing crime. To return to my original question, how can feeding kids be a bad thing?

 

 

 

 





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Handle9
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  #3221911 23-Apr-2024 18:38
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Rikkitic:

 

Handle9:

 

If you are making the claim that it's a worthwhile policy but we can't measure any improvement then you are back to doing policy by feels. It's as silly as the law and order nuts who claim that longer sentences will automatically reduce crime.

 

The policy would have had an expected outcome otherwise it should never have been approved. What is it's effectiveness in acheiving that outcome? That is what should be considered if we are taking an evidence based approach.

 

 

I think you are missing the point here. Even at its worst, even with no justification whatsoever, feeding kids still feeds them. That is a bottom line and it is worthwhile as hell. It is not like the money is being diverted to something like roads.

 

Maybe it isn't as effective as something else. Maybe the money could be better used elsewhere. But until then at least it is doing something worthwhile. No way is this equivalent to longer sentences reducing crime. To return to my original question, how can feeding kids be a bad thing?

 

 

I'm not claiming it's a bad thing. I'm saying it hasn't acheived what it was claimed it would acheive and something else may have better outcomes for education. How is using finite resources in more effective ways a bad thing?


sir1963
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  #3221915 23-Apr-2024 18:58
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Handle9:

 

I'm not claiming it's a bad thing. I'm saying it hasn't acheived what it was claimed it would acheive and something else may have better outcomes for education. How is using finite resources in more effective ways a bad thing?

 

 

 

 

How do you KNOW it has not achieved anything worthwhile when the results take years and we simply have not had time to properly assess it ?

 

We ALSO KNOW that 3 strikes doe NOT work, yet they are going to throw huge sums of money at it. Luxon says only about 90 people over 10 years will be impacted...so that is

 

90 x $150,000 = $13.5 Million for one year. If these 90 people get an average of 4 years, that is $54 Million wasted on something has repeatedly failed to show it works... but it buys votes...

 

Where as @ $5 per breakfast for 200 days = $1,000, over 10 years = $10,000

 

How does it make any sense to claim $10k is "bad" and then demand lingers entrances at $150k a year.

 

Each prisoner..for 1 year.. $150,000 that money could feed 15 children breakfast for their entire time at school

 

 

 

Meantime though this government is removing all sorts of environmental protections even though we KNOW that will cause more environmental harm, increase climate change etc when we also know its going to cost FAR MORE in 30 years because of the consequences.

 

Perhaps instead of roads we should build rail




quickymart
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  #3221919 23-Apr-2024 19:39
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sir1963:

 

Perhaps instead of roads we should build rail

 

 

That, and get something in place for the ferries, too.


Handle9
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  #3221920 23-Apr-2024 20:00
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sir1963:

Handle9:


I'm not claiming it's a bad thing. I'm saying it hasn't acheived what it was claimed it would acheive and something else may have better outcomes for education. How is using finite resources in more effective ways a bad thing?



 


How do you KNOW it has not achieved anything worthwhile when the results take years and we simply have not had time to properly assess it ?


We ALSO KNOW that 3 strikes doe NOT work, yet they are going to throw huge sums of money at it. Luxon says only about 90 people over 10 years will be impacted...so that is


90 x $150,000 = $13.5 Million for one year. If these 90 people get an average of 4 years, that is $54 Million wasted on something has repeatedly failed to show it works... but it buys votes...


Where as @ $5 per breakfast for 200 days = $1,000, over 10 years = $10,000


How does it make any sense to claim $10k is "bad" and then demand lingers entrances at $150k a year.


Each prisoner..for 1 year.. $150,000 that money could feed 15 children breakfast for their entire time at school


 


Meantime though this government is removing all sorts of environmental protections even though we KNOW that will cause more environmental harm, increase climate change etc when we also know its going to cost FAR MORE in 30 years because of the consequences.


Perhaps instead of roads we should build rail



Have you got evidence of the program working at scale? Shouting and whataboutism isn’t evidence.


sir1963
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  #3221921 23-Apr-2024 20:12
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Handle9: 

Have you got evidence of the program working at scale? Shouting and whataboutism isn’t evidence.

 

Please explain...how does one do that unless you do it at scale over a reasonable length of time.

 

The whataboutism is this same government using an entirely different set of rules to justify wasteful spending on 3 strikes, even though it has proven to be a complete failure world wide.

 

Exactly where is this governments "evidence based" approach ?


Handle9
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  #3221925 23-Apr-2024 20:25
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sir1963:

Handle9: 

Have you got evidence of the program working at scale? Shouting and whataboutism isn’t evidence.


Please explain...how does one do that unless you do it at scale over a reasonable length of time.


The whataboutism is this same government using an entirely different set of rules to justify wasteful spending on 3 strikes, even though it has proven to be a complete failure world wide.


Exactly where is this governments "evidence based" approach ?



The policy has been in place for a number of years. That is a reasonable amount of time to show some progress. This hasn’t been the case that I know of. You claimed that the school lunches program was a proven program. If it’s proven then logic would suggest that there is evidence to support your position.

My original comment was that I didn’t think it was proven to be an effective policy. The default position in this thread is blue bad rather than interrogating individual policies on their merits.

I never claimed this government had an evidence based approach. If you read what was posted I made this point with regards to prison sentences.

 
 
 

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sir1963
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  #3221942 23-Apr-2024 21:34
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Handle9: 

The policy has been in place for a number of years. That is a reasonable amount of time to show some progress. This hasn’t been the case that I know of. You claimed that the school lunches program was a proven program. If it’s proven then logic would suggest that there is evidence to support your position.

My original comment was that I didn’t think it was proven to be an effective policy. The default position in this thread is blue bad rather than interrogating individual policies on their merits.

I never claimed this government had an evidence based approach. If you read what was posted I made this point with regards to prison sentences.

 

 

 

Rubbish. Your argument if it was applied to pine trees would be "they've been growing for 5 years and we have not received any income, lets cut them down and do something different"

 

It take more than a few years, this is a LONG term project that needs that long term commitment.

 

There is a ton of medical evidence showing kids learn better when they are not hungry, their ability to concentrate is better when their blood sugars are not low, rates of strep and depression are lower. Lower nutrition also impacts brain and body development, this in turn impacts the health system.

 

Kids arriving at school without having had breakfast are already 12+ hours without food, that is NOT healthy, nor helpful to their education, growth and development.

 

This government is NOT interested in "a better solution" , they are interest in cuts and d@mn the consequences.

 

When you retire, it is going to be these children you are going to rely on to be able to supply your needs. Who knows, maybe they will take the view there is no evidence of any benefits in keeping the pension going, it makes better sense to use it more wisely...

 

These kids, whether you like it or not, are YOUR future, personally I would like them to thrive now and be productive when I need their support.


Handle9
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  #3221951 23-Apr-2024 22:10
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If you were growing a pine forest you’d look at how much it’s growing each year. If it’s moving in the right direction then it’s all good and you carry on. If the trees aren’t growing like you expected you’d need to challenge your assumptions and determine why not and whether you need to do something different.

The expectation of arriving at the destination instantaneously is erroneous, the expectation that there is year on year progress across 4 or 5 years is entirely reasonable. The initial program was put in place in 2019. It’s not been in place for 6 months, it’s been around for 5 years.

This is what treasury and the MOE have been doing. If it’s doing what they expected then they’d point to that. If it’s not doing what was expected then it needs to be rethought.

sir1963
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  #3221961 23-Apr-2024 22:29
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Handle9: If you were growing a pine forest you’d look at how much it’s growing each year. If it’s moving in the right direction then it’s all good and you carry on. If the trees aren’t growing like you expected you’d need to challenge your assumptions and determine why not and whether you need to do something different.

The expectation of arriving at the destination instantaneously is erroneous, the expectation that there is year on year progress across 4 or 5 years is entirely reasonable. The initial program was put in place in 2019. It’s not been in place for 6 months, it’s been around for 5 years.

This is what treasury and the MOE have been doing. If it’s doing what they expected then they’d point to that. If it’s not doing what was expected then it needs to be rethought.

 

We KNOW nutrition in kids helps brains and body development

 

We KNOW nutrition helps behaviour 

 

We KNOW these things have a marked influence on future outcomes, employment, criminal activity, etc etc etc

 

 

 

THERE is your end goal.

 

This study needs to continue until those kids are in their 30's to see what impact it has made to their long term lives, their families and their kids lines

 

The short term this has been running is insufficient to do that.

 

What we are looking for is life long improvements and intergenerational improvements, not a quick turn around 3 year election cycle bragging point.

 

 

 

My point was after 5 years, there was no measurable outcome for pine trees, there was zero return on investment, they could have earned more money by simply putting that money in the bank. So the evidence after 5 years for pine trees is don't plant them, there is no return on it.

 

 


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  #3221964 23-Apr-2024 22:40
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So what you’re saying is there is no way to determine if the program is effective for 25 years. It’s nonsensical.

freitasm

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  #3221973 23-Apr-2024 23:07
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"Tough on crime" is bullshit.

 

Public service job cuts: What ministries are proposing | Stuff

 

 

Most recently, on Monday April 22, the department confirmed cuts to the team that investigates child exploitation and money laundering. From Monday’s cuts, 59 roles were being disestablished.

 





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deepred
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  #3221982 24-Apr-2024 01:19
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ICYMI, a recent Ipsos survey compared rising populism in NZ with other nations. Further analysis follows, may or may not be hyperbole:

 





"I regret to say that we of the F.B.I. are powerless to act in cases of oral-genital intimacy, unless it has in some way obstructed interstate commerce." — J. Edgar Hoover

"Create a society that values material things above all else. Strip it of industry. Raise taxes for the poor and reduce them for the rich and for corporations. Prop up failed financial institutions with public money. Ask for more tax, while vastly reducing public services. Put adverts everywhere, regardless of people's ability to afford the things they advertise. Allow the cost of food and housing to eclipse people's ability to pay for them. Light blue touch paper." — Andrew Maxwell


Ge0rge
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  #3221984 24-Apr-2024 06:20
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freitasm:

"Tough on crime" is bullshit.


Public service job cuts: What ministries are proposing | Stuff




I would be interested to know how many people are actually going to lose their job, vs how many funded positions that are not filled, for wherever reason, are being removed. I haven't seen that asked anywhere.

tdgeek
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  #3221985 24-Apr-2024 06:25
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deepred:

 

ICYMI, a recent Ipsos survey compared rising populism in NZ with other nations. Further analysis follows, may or may not be hyperbole:

 

 

"Create a society that values material things above all else. Strip it of industry. Raise taxes for the poor and reduce them for the rich and for corporations. Prop up failed financial institutions with public money. Ask for more tax, while vastly reducing public services. Put adverts everywhere, regardless of people's ability to afford the things they advertise. Allow the cost of food and housing to eclipse people's ability to pay for them. Light blue touch paper." — Andrew Maxwell

 

Pretty much. And all of these mass staff cuts, service cuts, even the oft mentioned school lunches cuts, what do we get for all this?

 

Low to medium income earners get a tiny tiny gain. Thats no help

 

Upper medium to high earners get a bigger gain, although thats essentially chump change.

 

The winners are those with kids, and Im all for that, would have been better to give the lower/medium singles more, the families more, and dont bother with the rest who dont need it

 

In a tight labour market I wonder how many will get onto a benefit once the payout stand down period is over? Still win for the Govt though, "assuming" they factored that in


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