Maori Seats

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#1827220 22-Jul-2017 18:00

We should not get rid of the Maori seats. Instead, we could introduce a third electoral roll. This would be for people of non-Maori decent. This way, everyone will have the option of being on the general roll or on their own race based roll. If the Maori seats are not racist or a form of apartheid, as people above have argued, then neither will a electoral roll exclusive for non-Maori.

Wiggum

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#1827241 22-Jul-2017 18:15

debo:

We should not get rid of the Maori seats. Instead, we could introduce a third electoral roll. This would be for people of non-Maori decent. This way, everyone will have the option of being on the general roll or on their own race based roll. If the Maori seats are not racist or a form of apartheid, as people above have argued, then neither will a electoral roll exclusive for non-Maori.

Brilliant

tdgeek

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#1827246 22-Jul-2017 18:25

Wiggum:

debo:

We should not get rid of the Maori seats. Instead, we could introduce a third electoral roll. This would be for people of non-Maori decent. This way, everyone will have the option of being on the general roll or on their own race based roll. If the Maori seats are not racist or a form of apartheid, as people above have argued, then neither will a electoral roll exclusive for non-Maori.

Brilliant

I thought you wanted the Maori seats gone. Not democratic, misproportionate to the majority and so on. Now, you agree with keeping them on the basis of a Maori Roll and Non-Maori roll. Whats the third roll that @debo mentions? Pakeha, Non Maori and Non Pakeha?

Wiggum

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#1827250 22-Jul-2017 18:31

tdgeek:

Wiggum:

debo:

We should not get rid of the Maori seats. Instead, we could introduce a third electoral roll. This would be for people of non-Maori decent. This way, everyone will have the option of being on the general roll or on their own race based roll. If the Maori seats are not racist or a form of apartheid, as people above have argued, then neither will a electoral roll exclusive for non-Maori.

Brilliant

I thought you wanted the Maori seats gone. Not democratic, misproportionate to the majority and so on. Now, you agree with keeping them on the basis of a Maori Roll and Non-Maori roll. Whats the third roll that @debo mentions? Pakeha, Non Maori and Non Pakeha?

Just keep it simple. Have a third roll called the Pakeha (European, Non Maori) roll. But I suppose this will be deemed racist. Same shoe though, just on a different foot.

frankv

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#1827276 22-Jul-2017 20:11

cadman:

The continued existence of the maori seats is a gross injustice to democracy.

This has been repeated over and over. But my point that they don't materially affect the makeup of Parliament (which is decided by the national Party vote), and therefore has no material affect on democracy, hasn't been refuted.

Wiggum

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#1827283 22-Jul-2017 20:33

frankv:

cadman:

The continued existence of the maori seats is a gross injustice to democracy.

This has been repeated over and over. But my point that they don't materially affect the makeup of Parliament (which is decided by the national Party vote), and therefore has no material affect on democracy, hasn't been refuted.

With MMP they create an overhang.

An Overhang occurred for the first time at the 2005 election when the Maori Party won four of the seven Maori seats, but its Party Vote was only 2% entitling the party to only 3 seats. The size of the House of Representatives was increased from 120 to 121 seats to accommodate the overhang.

Do you realize that it is actually possible for a political party to win 51% of the party vote and not be able to form a government?

This has been brought up in the past by a few politicians.

So yes they do (or can) have an affect on our democracy.

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Batman

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#1827287 22-Jul-2017 20:44

Wiggum:

frankv:

cadman:

The continued existence of the maori seats is a gross injustice to democracy.

This has been repeated over and over. But my point that they don't materially affect the makeup of Parliament (which is decided by the national Party vote), and therefore has no material affect on democracy, hasn't been refuted.

With MMP they create an overhang.

Do you realize that it is actually possible for a political party to win 51% of the party vote and not be able to form a government?

This has been brought up in the past by a few politicians.

So yes they do (or can) have an affect on our democracy.

Now, That is a big problem, that is real.

tdgeek

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#1827288 22-Jul-2017 20:45

Wiggum:

Do you realize that it is actually possible for a political party to win 51% of the party vote and not be able to form a government?

I was not aware of that. The party vote determines the % of seats the party gets. If you win 51% of the party vote, you get 51% of the seats. You cannot get less, but you can get more. If a party gets party voters but does not reach one of the two thresholds required (A seat or 5% of the vote) the other parties shares those spare % and thus can get a small % more seats than their party vote.

Please explain how a party can get 51% of the party vote, but is awarded less than 51% of the seats.

Batman

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#1827289 22-Jul-2017 20:47

It just does. That's the crazy MMP system. Even without the Maori seats, nobody knows what happens until the votes are in, the formula is more complicated than rocket science.

tdgeek

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#1827290 22-Jul-2017 20:52

Batman:

It just does. That's the crazy MMP system. Even without the Maori seats, nobody knows what happens until the votes are in, the formula is more complicated than rocket science.

It just does? Thats not an answer. If the Nats get 51% of the party vote, they get 51% of the seats. They win, and need no one else. They don't need Act, or Maori Party.

Now, your talking even if they don't get Maori seats, thats not the question. The point was the W man says Nats get 51% of the party vote, they get 51% of the seats but may not be able to form a Govt, I'd like to know how.

MikeB4

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#1827291 22-Jul-2017 20:56

Wiggum:
frankv:

cadman:

The continued existence of the maori seats is a gross injustice to democracy.

This has been repeated over and over. But my point that they don't materially affect the makeup of Parliament (which is decided by the national Party vote), and therefore has no material affect on democracy, hasn't been refuted.

With MMP they create an overhang.

An Overhang occurred for the first time at the 2005 election when the Maori Party won four of the seven Maori seats, but its Party Vote was only 2% entitling the party to only 3 seats. The size of the House of Representatives was increased from 120 to 121 seats to accommodate the overhang.

Do you realize that it is actually possible for a political party to win 51% of the party vote and not be able to form a government?

This has been brought up in the past by a few politicians.

So yes they do (or can) have an affect on our democracy.

Any party can win the Maori electorates including independents.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Dyson

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Wiggum

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#1827292 22-Jul-2017 20:56

tdgeek:

Batman:

It just does. That's the crazy MMP system. Even without the Maori seats, nobody knows what happens until the votes are in, the formula is more complicated than rocket science.

It just does? Thats not an answer. If the Nats get 51% of the party vote, they get 51% of the seats. They win, and need no one else. They don't need Act, or Maori Party.

Now, your talking even if they don't get Maori seats, thats not the question. The point was the W man says Nats get 51% of the party vote, they get 51% of the seats but may not be able to form a Govt, I'd like to know how.

51% will always get the same number of seats. But if there is an overhang, more seats get added, and suddenly the 51% is no longer the majority of seats. Thats how I understand it anyway. Perhaps we should look more closely at how it works, and find out the exact formula.

This would never have been a problem in the past without MMP. The problem is caused by a combination of MMP and the Maori seats, not really one or the other.

Wiggum

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#1827293 22-Jul-2017 20:59

MikeB4:
Wiggum:

frankv:

cadman:

The continued existence of the maori seats is a gross injustice to democracy.

This has been repeated over and over. But my point that they don't materially affect the makeup of Parliament (which is decided by the national Party vote), and therefore has no material affect on democracy, hasn't been refuted.

With MMP they create an overhang.

An Overhang occurred for the first time at the 2005 election when the Maori Party won four of the seven Maori seats, but its Party Vote was only 2% entitling the party to only 3 seats. The size of the House of Representatives was increased from 120 to 121 seats to accommodate the overhang.

Do you realize that it is actually possible for a political party to win 51% of the party vote and not be able to form a government?

This has been brought up in the past by a few politicians.

So yes they do (or can) have an affect on our democracy.

Any party can win the Maori electorates including independents.

Yes. There would need to be some coalitions going on between all other parties.

Batman

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#1827294 22-Jul-2017 21:00

tdgeek:

Batman:

It just does. That's the crazy MMP system. Even without the Maori seats, nobody knows what happens until the votes are in, the formula is more complicated than rocket science.

It just does? Thats not an answer. If the Nats get 51% of the party vote, they get 51% of the seats. They win, and need no one else. They don't need Act, or Maori Party.

Now, your talking even if they don't get Maori seats, thats not the question. The point was the W man says Nats get 51% of the party vote, they get 51% of the seats but may not be able to form a Govt, I'd like to know how.

TBH I don't know the formula.

If you have voted in a GE before, you will know there are 2 boxes to mark X. One party vote, one electoral vote.

All I know is if you win a seat, you get that seat. If you don't win a seat, you can come in as a list MP.

But if your party don't win a seat, and you have 5% party vote, you get some seats, proportionate to some magical formula.

If you have 51% party vote, your seats depend on the above, usually you get more than your party vote because some party votes under 5% will be lost.

So NO, a 51% party vote almost never gives you 51% of seats.

MikeB4

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#1827295 22-Jul-2017 21:03

Wiggum:
tdgeek:

Batman:

It just does. That's the crazy MMP system. Even without the Maori seats, nobody knows what happens until the votes are in, the formula is more complicated than rocket science.

It just does? Thats not an answer. If the Nats get 51% of the party vote, they get 51% of the seats. They win, and need no one else. They don't need Act, or Maori Party.

Now, your talking even if they don't get Maori seats, thats not the question. The point was the W man says Nats get 51% of the party vote, they get 51% of the seats but may not be able to form a Govt, I'd like to know how.

51% will always get the same number of seats. But if there is an overhang, more seats get added, and suddenly the 51% is no longer the majority of seats. Thats how I understand it anyway. Perhaps we should look more closely at how it works, and find out the exact formula.

This would never have been a problem in the past without MMP. The problem is caused by a combination of MMP and the Maori seats, not really one or the other.

The Maori seats do not alter the formula, all political parties can win the Maori seats.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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