NZ 2023 Election Thread

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#3122536 1-Sep-2023 09:58

tdgeek:

Sorta like the GST increase to 15% that was a no, but it became a yes. Much comment about Labour delivering. Well, that clearly is an issue for National as well.

How far back can we go with this? If we're going to open up a previous National government to criticism against the current party then is the 1999 - 2008 Labour Party fair game as well?

Our experience of the current government is far more relevant to the election that we're about to have than any other, IMO.

But who's to say. I'm happy so long as people are prepared to hold everyone to the same standard.

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#3122632 1-Sep-2023 12:02

GV27:

How far back can we go with this? If we're going to open up a previous National government to criticism against the current party then is the 1999 - 2008 Labour Party fair game as well?

Our experience of the current government is far more relevant to the election that we're about to have than any other, IMO.

But who's to say. I'm happy so long as people are prepared to hold everyone to the same standard.

But you dont hold everyone to the same standard, the Opposition is seemingly off limits. So all we have to go by is the proven past. Tax cuts, didn't happen, although they said they might. Same this time round "if conditions are right" I posted in 2017 what Labour had inherited, I was "advised" by a poster here that no you cant say that.

GV27

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#3122636 1-Sep-2023 12:06

tdgeek:

But you dont hold everyone to the same standard, the Opposition is seemingly off limits. So all we have to go by is the proven past. Tax cuts, didn't happen, although they said they might. Same this time round "if conditions are right" I posted in 2017 what Labour had inherited, I was "advised" by a poster here that no you cant say that.

The main problem I have with the 2017 comparison is the election isn't between that National government and our current opposition. It's between our current government and our current opposition.

And for the record, there's plenty in their policy that I don't like. If they hadn't reinstated interest deductibility they could have committed to indexing every single year, or more meaningful tax relief.

I just have less of a problem with it than I do with the current government's approach to tax, which is to acknowledge there is a living cost crisis while at the same time increasing income taxes by stealth as inflation hits pay packets.

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#3122641 1-Sep-2023 12:09

The main topic here should be Nationals tax cuts. Are pretty average, good, or great? At least they will happen in April and July. Overall they are a better handout than Labours by all accounts. If you have dependent kids then its $$$

How accurately the funds for them are being sourced seems to be another matter.

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#3122645 1-Sep-2023 12:21

GV27:

The main problem I have with the 2017 comparison is the election isn't between that National government and our current opposition. It's between our current government and our current opposition.

And for the record, there's plenty in their policy that I don't like. If they hadn't reinstated interest deductibility they could have committed to indexing every single year, or more meaningful tax relief.

I just have less of a problem with it than I do with the current government's approach to tax, which is to acknowledge there is a living cost crisis while at the same time increasing income taxes by stealth as inflation hits pay packets.

Yes, its about now, which is current Government 2.0 and current Opposition 2.0. My posts on 2017 were that, that, and the past are similar, re the "might have tax cuts" That Luxon has that out clause for 3 year indexing is a concern. Oddly (as was also asked of JK with his) Luxon 3 year "might have" indexing is election year, again. Why not pass a Statute that indexing starts from 1 April 2024, even if it is phased in from then. Rather than say might be 2026

Labours lack of tax cuts is partially due to that they dont want tax cuts for everybody, so they target various add ons instead, so its not entirely ignored at all. Its just target based than globally based. That Luxon rolled back (one of many) his 2022 tax proposal so that the wealthy get well looked after was a good move. Probably forced as "I get $18 per week but you get $18000 per year" as was in the media 2022. In any case, his format for cuts is good. I think low income singles miss out, but those with kids win big, not good. Should have catered the former a little more.

On2or3wheels

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Master Geek

#3122668 1-Sep-2023 13:02

GV27:

As usual, picking the top tax rate and going "it's higher than ours so you're better off here" is conveniently leaving out half the story.

You referred to the top tax rate in NZ, so I referred to the top rate over there. I used Oz as someone else mentioned all the people moving there.
Would you rather I had used Sweden at 52% or Norway.

I'm just pointing out that it's common practice to have a high rate of tax on the wealthy & ours is probably quite reasonable.

GV27

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#3122697 1-Sep-2023 14:28

On2or3wheels:

You referred to the top tax rate in NZ, so I referred to the top rate over there. I used Oz as someone else mentioned all the people moving there.
Would you rather I had used Sweden at 52% or Norway.

I'm just pointing out that it's common practice to have a high rate of tax on the wealthy & ours is probably quite reasonable.

It's common to have a high rate of tax on high incomes. That's quite an important distinction.

And no, because neither is really that relevant to NZ at all. I don't pay tax there and I'm not voting in their elections, and their tax system being aggressive in some ways does not change the issues with ours one bit.

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#3122745 1-Sep-2023 17:58

GV27:

It's common to have a high rate of tax on high incomes. That's quite an important distinction.

And no, because neither is really that relevant to NZ at all. I don't pay tax there and I'm not voting in their elections, and their tax system being aggressive in some ways does not change the issues with ours one bit.

???

Whats the issue with ours???

We could have a flat rate for everyone. We could tax based on PDI. Admittedly its difficult as we want low income people to be ok, we also want high income to succeed without paying 90% tax.

Whats the issue with ours???

On2or3wheels

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Master Geek

#3122767 1-Sep-2023 19:34

GV27:

It's common to have a high rate of tax on high incomes. That's quite an important distinction.

And no, because neither is really that relevant to NZ at all. I don't pay tax there and I'm not voting in their elections, and their tax system being aggressive in some ways does not change the issues with ours one bit.

Actually it is relevant because the real question is are our taxes reasonable for what we're receiving & does the government earn enough to provide the services people want/need. Part of that is checking against other countries if parties are telling us we're over taxed here.

I'm not saying the government isn't wasting money, but really the tax cut is a bribe. When you look at all the things the public say needs fixing from hospitals, roads, water supplies, public transport, Pharmac, housing, you could argue no party should be cutting tax but instead needs to use the money more wisely.

The right want to give us back money & say we can choose how to use it ourselves, but I can't go out & build myself my own road so I can get to work faster, or build myself a personal hospital.

At the end of the day it's housing/rental costs that have destroyed this country by making us spend more & more tax dollars on benefits so people can pay the rent.

gzt

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#3122769 1-Sep-2023 19:43

tdgeek: How far back can we go with this?

Usually goes on until someone in this topic blames Peters : )

GV27: But who's to say. I'm happy so long as people are prepared to hold everyone to the same standard.

Exactly. It's not about any particular standard. This is just normal stuff in most democracies the world over and has been normal for NZ for governments of any party, more so in the FPP era, less so in the MMP era. Even so, National Party example again sorry - you can see a Nat 2020 spokesperson McClay committing to a "regulations bonfire" (his words) and promising amendments to other legislation - in the same period it's easy to find Nat 2020 committing to repeal of existing acts of legislation if elected. Link pending if I get time. The idea the current government has committed [something or other] just because you prefer they had not, is unsupportable by any fact.

gzt

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#3122774 1-Sep-2023 20:16

There's a reason this is looking like an FPP election campaign - Luxon essentially lost control of for want of a better term the right wing of his party on day two of his leadership and he's been running behind and ahead of them ever since - reaching the current position - and next he will have the wing of the ACT party.

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#3122832 2-Sep-2023 08:33

gzt: There's a reason this is looking like an FPP election campaign - Luxon essentially lost control of for want of a better term the right wing of his party on day two of his leadership and he's been running behind and ahead of them ever since - reaching the current position - and next he will have the wing of the ACT party.

You forgot to mention the dysfunction between the Labour leader and some of his senior ministers. Grant Robertson saying removing GST from fresh food was a boondoggle then having to eat a dead rat on this a few months later in an attempt to show a facade of unity. David Parker resigning as Revenue Minister.

With any luck National will be able to govern with having to negotiate with only one coalition partner or confidence partner. Labour will need two ot three partners to have any hope of governing. Think about how chaotic that migh be trying to placate all their "bottom lines"?

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gzt

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#3122896 2-Sep-2023 11:07

The Parker resignation was surprising to me. The change in GST orientation to exempt fruit and vegetables does not surprise me. Likewise, that proposed GST change will occur after the election on financial year, and if Labour is reelected. It's looking like Labour + Greens + Te Pati Maori. As usual, NZ First will do their thing too and decide at the time which way to go (or sideline) which in fact all the other small parties do too just a bit more predictable by the pundits.

Mostly known quantities in there and some similarities to the current arrangements.

gzt

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#3122904 2-Sep-2023 11:35

I'm aware there's a lot of fear about Te Pati Maori for some reason. For that reason I'm going to quote part of Rawiri Waititi's adjournment speech also on Te Pati Maori Facebook:

"What does an Aotearoa hou look like? It looks like how we would treat you on the marae. We will welcome you. We will feed you. We will house you. We will protect you. We will educate you. We will care you. We will love you." "Te Pāti Māori is a movement that leaves no one behind, whether you are tangata whenua or a tangata Tiriti, tangata hauā, takatāpui, wāhine, tāne, rangatahi, mokopuna-you are whānau."

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#3123026 2-Sep-2023 16:51

I think one under-reported aspect of the National Tax Policy is to make the lives of marginal folks with disabilities even harder. https://www.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/132860507/nationals-welfare-policy-will-make-life-harder-for-disabled-people-advocates-say

Sure National are just reversing the policy Labour put in place from 2020 to attach benefits including those on a disability benefit to the rates of wage increases (higher) rather than inflation (lower).. but come on.

"Under National’s policy, a single person on the supported living benefit would be $6 a week worse off in the first year, rising to $19 a week by 2026. A disabled couple would be $9 a week worse off in the first year, and $33 a week worse off by 2026."

Ouch...

It's like the fact that inflation is rising rapidly and the lowest and most vulnerable kiwis are just not important.

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