NZ 2023 Election Thread

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Awrrr
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#3137987 2-Oct-2023 21:10

SaltyNZ:

tdgeek:

Then you have a "corporate" that is running the function, while avoiding ticket clipping and shareholder dividends. Meaning that taxpayers are the shareholders. Run it as break even, plus CAPEX needs.

Don't fall for this "we need to run government like a business" BS. Businesses exist to create profits for the shareholders. Anyone with half a brain can look around and see where that leads, especially with the kind of "trust me, I used to run an airline" types. The bare minimum quality you can get away with at the highest possible profit margin. Better still if you can swing it so there are no real competitors, which oddly enough is exactly the situation for government services.

"Running government like a business" is the stereotypical neoliberal strategy. Prove governments can't run services by deliberately not running services, and then sell them as monopolies to your mates for cents on the dollar so they can extract the remaining value and complete the process of enshittification.

It's one thing to be worried about waste. But Governments are not meant to make a profit.

Governments are meant to provide a safe environment in which their citizens may flourish. Clean air, water and land. Education, health. Money unspent means hungry kids. Money unspent means medicines not purchased or surgeries not performed. Money unspent means poorer education, contaminated drinking water ... a government run like a business represents a fundamental failure of responsibility to the purpose for which we delegate our collective authority to this edifice of Government.

A government run like a business is a government designed to fail, at your expense, so that someone else can get rich.

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sen8or

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#3138088 3-Oct-2023 08:06

SaltyNZ:

tdgeek:

Then you have a "corporate" that is running the function, while avoiding ticket clipping and shareholder dividends. Meaning that taxpayers are the shareholders. Run it as break even, plus CAPEX needs.

Don't fall for this "we need to run government like a business" BS. Businesses exist to create profits for the shareholders. Anyone with half a brain can look around and see where that leads, especially with the kind of "trust me, I used to run an airline" types. The bare minimum quality you can get away with at the highest possible profit margin. Better still if you can swing it so there are no real competitors, which oddly enough is exactly the situation for government services.

"Running government like a business" is the stereotypical neoliberal strategy. Prove governments can't run services by deliberately not running services, and then sell them as monopolies to your mates for cents on the dollar so they can extract the remaining value and complete the process of enshittification.

It's one thing to be worried about waste. But Governments are not meant to make a profit.

Governments are meant to provide a safe environment in which their citizens may flourish. Clean air, water and land. Education, health. Money unspent means hungry kids. Money unspent means medicines not purchased or surgeries not performed. Money unspent means poorer education, contaminated drinking water ... a government run like a business represents a fundamental failure of responsibility to the purpose for which we delegate our collective authority to this edifice of Government.

A government run like a business is a government designed to fail, at your expense, so that someone else can get rich.

Runs like a business could be defined as "runs at maximum efficiency, using minimum resources to achieve operational goals". Money spent does not necessarily equate to a better outcome. Businesses know this, but you want a Govt to be immune?

Here, many Govts (blue, red, green, purple, whatever) can learn a lot. The burn through millions of dollars of tax payers money achieving absolutely nothing, or if there are any sort of results, the return on the amount invested is laughable.

If a Govt (of any faction) could show where money was going, what controls were in place to ensure it was best bang for the buck and what the measures used to gauge its success, along with regular milestones that were ticked off as they were met, it'd be a long way down the track of "running like a business". They would also need contingencies in place if their original plans were knocked off track by external factors.

Don't fall for giving Govt's a free pass on their wasteful spending because you don't want them to "run like a business", you end up in the mess we are in now.

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#3138089 3-Oct-2023 08:12

SaltyNZ:

Handle9:

and the Greens hate me as a cis white man.

As a cis het white man who is also a member of the Green Party ... no they don't?

It might have been beneficial in that case for the Green party to explicitly clarify that their co-leader's racist, sexist outburst not so long ago was a personal opinion.

Did Eric Clapton really think she looked wonderful...or was it after the 15th outfit she tried on and he just wanted to get to the party and get a drink?

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#3138090 3-Oct-2023 08:15

sen8or:

Runs like a business could be defined as "runs at maximum efficiency, using minimum resources to achieve operational goals". Money spent does not necessarily equate to a better outcome. Businesses know this, but you want a Govt to be immune?

Have you ever worked in a really large business? They have the same issues that governments have with bloat, ineficiency and poor co-ordination, they just don't tell anyone where the money has gone.

Just to give you a few examples, there's the Lidl SAP implementation (€500 million down the gurgler there), HPs SAP implementation ($160 million in lost sales), Nikes SAP implementation ($100 million in lost revenue, 20% loss in stock value), the list goes on and on.

The big difference is most business screw ups don't make it into the public domain.

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#3138091 3-Oct-2023 08:16

floydbloke:

Handle9:

and the Greens hate me as a cis white man.

It might have been beneficial in that case for the Green party to explicitly clarify that their co-leader's racist, sexist outburst not so long ago was a personal opinion.

I would have thought so but instead they tried to roll one of the grown ups instead.

I give up on the greens, they are never going to get their act together.

SaltyNZ

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#3138104 3-Oct-2023 08:41

sen8or:

Here, many Govts (blue, red, green, purple, whatever) can learn a lot. The burn through millions of dollars of tax payers money achieving absolutely nothing, or if there are any sort of results, the return on the amount invested is laughable.

One advantage that a company has over a government is that they can just do whatever they feel like without consulting with the entire population. The National government burnt $26M to find out nobody wanted to change the flag. The Labour government spent $70-something million dollars studying cycleway options for the Auckland Harbour Bridge.

This is all "wasted" money. But equally as such, if those governments had just plowed ahead and done those things ... well, imagine the uproar. The monarchists would be rending their shirts in the streets over the Union Jack, and the utebros would be having brain aneurysms over such a triumph of woke.

The great thing about living in a democracy is that the government can't just do stuff.

The terrible thing about living in a democracy is that the government can't just do stuff.

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SaltyNZ

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#3138105 3-Oct-2023 08:43

Handle9:

I give up on the greens, they are never going to get their act together.

That's funny, I can't see act ever getting their green together either.

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tdgeek

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#3138113 3-Oct-2023 08:55

sen8or:

Runs like a business could be defined as "runs at maximum efficiency, using minimum resources to achieve operational goals". Money spent does not necessarily equate to a better outcome. Businesses know this, but you want a Govt to be immune?

Here, many Govts (blue, red, green, purple, whatever) can learn a lot. The burn through millions of dollars of tax payers money achieving absolutely nothing, or if there are any sort of results, the return on the amount invested is laughable.

If a Govt (of any faction) could show where money was going, what controls were in place to ensure it was best bang for the buck and what the measures used to gauge its success, along with regular milestones that were ticked off as they were met, it'd be a long way down the track of "running like a business". They would also need contingencies in place if their original plans were knocked off track by external factors.

Don't fall for giving Govt's a free pass on their wasteful spending because you don't want them to "run like a business", you end up in the mess we are in now.

That was exactly my point. Businesses are efficient. Yes they can maximise profits by dubious means (looking at you supermarkets and fuel companies) but ultimately they try to be efficient to maximise profits. While a Government department, or function isn't there to make a "profit", in many ways they are. The efficiencies wont make a "profit" in the usual context. That "profit" will be savings from Government funding, so back to the taxpayer where they can be used for other funding. Or if the revenue from a Government function is all or part derived from fees that citizens pay, they can be reduced, back to the taxpayer

I knew a guy that worked for a Council. he told me they ramp up work Feb/Mar to use up their budget so it doesn't get cut. In a business, you actually seek out those budget savings. For anyone that has been involved in business budgets, you look at the past actuals, where the current actuals are tracking, and you seek to reduce those wherever possible. Efficiencies

sen8or

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#3138115 3-Oct-2023 08:59

Handle9:

sen8or:

Runs like a business could be defined as "runs at maximum efficiency, using minimum resources to achieve operational goals". Money spent does not necessarily equate to a better outcome. Businesses know this, but you want a Govt to be immune?

Have you ever worked in a really large business? They have the same issues that governments have with bloat, ineficiency and poor co-ordination, they just don't tell anyone where the money has gone.

Just to give you a few examples, there's the Lidl SAP implementation (€500 million down the gurgler there), HPs SAP implementation ($160 million in lost sales), Nikes SAP implementation ($100 million in lost revenue, 20% loss in stock value), the list goes on and on.

The big difference is most business screw ups don't make it into the public domain.

The old "they do it too so its okay" defense........

Business screw ups can cost their shareholders dividend returns, have a negative effect stock prices resulting in lower ability to raise capital and can result in layoffs and potentially a complete change in management / board structure. Govts just spin the narrative and move on to the next thing. 1-2 news cycles and its ancient history

SaltyNZ

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#3138116 3-Oct-2023 08:59

tdgeek:

he told me they ramp up work Feb/Mar to use up their budget so it doesn't get cut. In a business, you actually seek out those budget savings.

Every business I've ever worked has been the same - use it or lose it.

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freitasm

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#3138159 3-Oct-2023 10:07

This applies to New Zealand and National's "ban phones in schools": Mobile phone ban in English schools ‘smokescreen’ to mask real issues, say critics | Schools | The Guardian

Like the UK, most schools already have policies in place. I know my kid's college has, and had for years.

Glyn Potts, head teacher at Newman Roman Catholic College in Oldham, could not hide his irritation at the morning headlines announcing a government ban on mobile phones in state schools in England.

His school, like the vast majority, already has a mobile phone policy. “All banned and have been for 10 years,” he said, dismissing the announcement by the education secretary, Gillian Keegan, as a “smokescreen” to distract from the real challenges facing schools, such as underfunding, teacher recruitment and providing for pupils with special educational needs.

At Newman RC College, there’s a zero tolerance approach towards mobiles. Pupils can have their phones with them for the journey to and from school, but as soon as they cross the threshold into the school grounds phones must be switched off and kept out of sight for the duration of the school day.

Rikkitic

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#3138172 3-Oct-2023 10:45

I strongly oppose the National party and nearly everything it seems to stand for, but even more I oppose the miserable cretins who attack and threaten political candidates of any party. This is despicable cowardly behaviour that has no place in a democracy. If National or any other party wins, that is a democratic choice and I will deal with it.

There have been multiple reports in the media of candidates being abused and there appears to also be a racist element to this, as many seem to be of Indian ethnicity. This kind of thing needs to be called out. I will always vote progressive but anyone who wants to have an exchange of ideas with me is always welcome in my home for a discussion over coffee. Efforts to persuade through intimidation or violence stink and have no place in a civilised society.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

JPNZ

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#3138187 3-Oct-2023 11:14

Sadly the majority of the intimidation and abuse comes from the gangs which Labour has been pandering to for years. Its no question National will crack down on gangs so of course they are going to vote for the softer approach and the status quo.

From this mornings Post

"National Party campaign chairperson Chris Bishop said he had been “quite shocked” by the "intimidation and thuggish behaviour that the gangs are engaging in“.

“The gangs who by the way, are actively publicly supporting the Labour Party, because they know that the National Party is going to crack down on gangs.

“I'm not saying the Labour Party is endorsing it. I'm saying Harry Tam, and the Mongrel Mob are campaigning for the Labour Party that is a matter of public record.”

The National Party listed a series of incidents candidates and volunteers had faced, not all related to gang members and some reported to the police:

A candidate forced to move house after a gang threat
A senior Head Hunters member filming a candidate and their spouse in a restaurant and sharing it online with an abusive message
Death threats to an Auckland volunteer
An alleged intentional dog attack on a volunteer, resulting in the need for medical attention
Several volunteers abused by gang members in Hawke’s Bay
A beer bottle thrown at a candidate, and their house being broken into"

https://www.thepost.co.nz/a/politics/350083562/national-blames-threats-gangs-campaigning-labour

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#3138190 3-Oct-2023 11:22

JPNZ:

Sadly the majority of the intimidation and abuse comes from the gangs which Labour has been pandering to for years. Its no question National will crack down on gangs so of course they are going to vote for the softer approach and the status quo.

Don't try to politicise it. This is not a Labour/National issue.

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sen8or

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#3138206 3-Oct-2023 12:04

I don't think its isolated to a gang issue, there are fringe elements all over the place and with tensions high on the back of cost of living and other pressures, people really are at breaking point and differences of opinion are far more profound than they have been historically.

There are certain parties I would not vote for ever based on their ideologically driven policies, but they have as much right to campaign on those policies as do any other party.

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