Jacinda Ardern - our new PM

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Networkn
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#1953184 7-Feb-2018 18:38

MaxLV:

Yes, I've posted it before, then and now it is for your selfish, I'm all right jack, it's all their own fault attitude you have towards those New Zealanders who may be worse off than you. You proudly spout this attitude continuously in this forum...

Fortunately we dont live in the kind of New Zealand you want us all to live in.

You appear to be having a comprehension failure (again) if you think that's what I wrote.

Just because I want to encourage a sensible and longer-term solution to an issue, doesn't mean I don't care about those who are less fortunate than I.

I came from an extremely poor family, with generations of benefit dependency. I know plenty about it, and I know, from personal experience, that simply giving people more money, doesn't solve a problem. It alleviates a symptom, temporarily, sometimes.

There are systems in place to support those who are geniunely suffering hardship, and I 100% support that system continuing.

How about you climb off your holier than thou pedestal and consider for a moment, that yours is not the only opinion that matters.

rjt123

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#1953344 7-Feb-2018 22:00

There's a cliche "as cold as charity" - I hardly need enlarge on what it means. But social security does little for society. It is certainly good to know that if u fall there is a safety net. But there's a deeper problem if society lives on it, it should empower those on it to rise above it.

Geektastic

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#1953374 7-Feb-2018 23:17

MikeB4:

networkn:

MikeB4:

networkn:

@rikkitic I have 2 really straightforward questions for you. Just yes and no.

1) Do you think that it's reasonable to raise the minimum wage from 15.75, to $20.20 in 3 years?

2) Do you still think it's reasonable to do it, when the people responsible for measuring the impact of that decision (treasury), advise that the likely effect, is the loss of 58,000 jobs?

To give you some perspective, 12,000 jobs were added in New Zealand last Quarter, in one of the strongest employment periods of modern times.

The rise in minimum wage is a good move and a very much needed move to stop greater job loses. Inflation is rising, currently tipping the 2%. Power, petrol, rents and foods are rising and mortgages are tipped to rise. If the minimum wage is not raised then spending power gets arrested, this inturn slows the domestic market and tip the economy into recession. The risk for job loses and company closures from that would be greater.

Don't you see that raising the minimum wage, will cause everyone to pay more for products and services?

I am not lamenting *a* payrise, I am lamenting the thoughtless massive increase over a very small period of time.

Why thoughtless?

Mainly because arbitrary increases by government in matters in which they have little or no experience are likely to have unintended consequences.

Geektastic

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#1953377 7-Feb-2018 23:26

MikeAqua:

The thing that concerns me about minimum wage increase is that it may become self defeating. Specifically that the increase in minimum wage may drive price increases that cumulatively negate the benefits of the wage increase.

By goods and services becoming more expensive, by resulting interest rate increases, and by resulting increases in rent.

For example...let's increase student allowances $50/week and then - stand back in amazement - landlords increase student rents by..$50/week!

Minimum wage is not a concept I am especially fond of but there is no doubt that (a) increases in wages will increase the cost of whatever the business outputs and (b) increasing minimum wages is a known cause of Wage-Price Spirals.

@Networkn is correct - the solution is for people to get themselves off minimum wage wherever possible. No one should be happy settling for that on anything but a temporary basis unless they have absolutely no choice.

networkn

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#1953394 8-Feb-2018 00:28

Geektastic:

No one should be happy settling for that on anything but a temporary basis unless they have absolutely no choice.

And for the record, in those instances, I fully support state assistance for them at a reasonable level (Since some here think I am a heartless capitalist pig with no moral compass, which couldn't be further from the truth on any count).

rjt123

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#1953418 8-Feb-2018 07:44

MikeB4:

So everyone has the ability to retrain I think not. How does the sole income earner take time off to retrain? Everyone has the intellectual or physical ability to retain I think not. Reality is a huge percentage are caught in a poverty trap, it is very easy to victim blame.

Sometimes it just takes hard work. If you are diligent, loyal, work hard, and perhaps go a bit beyond what's expected of you as a 'minimum-wage employee' I have no doubt that you will get ahead. I can guarantee that it won't be easy, and hard work never appeals to anyone.

The mindset that 'I am on the minimum wage, so there's nothing I can do about my circumstances until the government lifts it' is the most debilitating thing and until you break free from the grip of it, you will never rise above it.

Edit: And there is no such thing as a poverty trap - thinking someone is "trapped" in poverty will never get them out of it.

Fred99

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#1953440 8-Feb-2018 08:27

rjt123:

Edit: And there is no such thing as a poverty trap - thinking someone is "trapped" in poverty will never get them out of it.

That reads somewhat like a statement from Orwell's "Ministry of Truth". OTOH by some definitions, a "poverty trap" is the situation where an individual receives welfare, but as that welfare payment scales back as their income increases, it can be a disincentive to seeking higher wages.

Low intergenerational upward social mobility and the correlation with income and wealth disparity is real, if that's what you mean by "poverty trap".

Education is one of the keys to breaking the cycle, but some people are vehemently opposed to the present government's moves to reduce the cost of tertiary education.

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GV27

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#1953442 8-Feb-2018 08:28

rjt123:

Edit: And there is no such thing as a poverty trap - thinking someone is "trapped" in poverty will never get them out of it.

Yea, let's ignore things like massive letting fees and bonds, if the poors want better accomodation they should just rent somewhere better. Absolutely no barriers to overcome there!

rjt123

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#1953463 8-Feb-2018 09:04

Fred99:

rjt123:

Edit: And there is no such thing as a poverty trap - thinking someone is "trapped" in poverty will never get them out of it.

That reads somewhat like a statement from Orwell's "Ministry of Truth". OTOH by some definitions, a "poverty trap" is the situation where an individual receives welfare, but as that welfare payment scales back as their income increases, it can be a disincentive to seeking higher wages.

Low intergenerational upward social mobility and the correlation with income and wealth disparity is real, if that's what you mean by "poverty trap".

Education is one of the keys to breaking the cycle, but some people are vehemently opposed to the present government's moves to reduce the cost of tertiary education.

I'm sure what you said is good, and probably interspersed with facts and other fine things like that - but do you really believe that people are actually trapped, or do you think they can rise above it, if they tried?

You mention "a disincentive to seeking higher wages" - if society holds that view then they are only trapped by their mindset and nothing else. That's what I mean by "as cold as charity" - charity will only ever let somebody eke out an existence, if you want more than that you need to get past relying on the government's charity. Brutally honest, but someone needs to say it.

MikeB4

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#1953468 8-Feb-2018 09:13

rjt123:
MikeB4:

So everyone has the ability to retrain I think not. How does the sole income earner take time off to retrain? Everyone has the intellectual or physical ability to retain I think not. Reality is a huge percentage are caught in a poverty trap, it is very easy to victim blame.

Sometimes it just takes hard work. If you are diligent, loyal, work hard, and perhaps go a bit beyond what's expected of you as a 'minimum-wage employee' I have no doubt that you will get ahead. I can guarantee that it won't be easy, and hard work never appeals to anyone.

The mindset that 'I am on the minimum wage, so there's nothing I can do about my circumstances until the government lifts it' is the most debilitating thing and until you break free from the grip of it, you will never rise above it.

Edit: And there is no such thing as a poverty trap - thinking someone is "trapped" in poverty will never get them out of it.

If you believe there is no such thing as a poverty trap you need to remove your full face blacked out helmit and go out and look around.

6FIEND

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#1953470 8-Feb-2018 09:15

Fred99:

Education is one of the keys to breaking the cycle, but some people are vehemently opposed to the present government's moves to reduce the cost of tertiary education.

I completely agree that "Education is one of the keys to breaking the cycle".

However, a significant portion of our poverty-stricken population would struggle to meet the (retired) National Standards for the final year of PRIMARY School. Let alone Secondary school.

To conflate this issue with Tertiary Education is significantly misguided.

networkn

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#1953472 8-Feb-2018 09:25

Fred99:

Education is one of the keys to breaking the cycle, but some people are vehemently opposed to the present government's moves to reduce the cost of tertiary education.

If that was in any way aimed at me, I'm calling you out on it.

I am fully supportive (go and check my numerous posts which clearly state it) of reducing the cost of education (esp for those for whom it would be hardest financially). I am opposed to it being done in the manner it has been done, without proper controls and processes that consider how to make it more effective.

I support the free education, so long as it's applied to those who put in the effort. So award it at the time of the course completion, or at the end of each year once that part of the course has been completed, or as I have stated, potentially tie it to an additional incentive of working inside NZ once education is completed, for a bigger bonus.

I've met very few (I can't recall any actually) that outrightly oppose it, it's common however to expect some controls to be put on it. I've even discussed with Labour voters who think it was half as$ed.

I have predicted that in a few years, the evidence will show massive enrollment numbers, massive of non complete, and very few if any additional tangible benefits to NZ as a result.

rjt123

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#1953494 8-Feb-2018 09:34

GV27:

rjt123:

Edit: And there is no such thing as a poverty trap - thinking someone is "trapped" in poverty will never get them out of it.

Yea, let's ignore things like massive letting fees and bonds, if the poors want better accomodation they should just rent somewhere better. Absolutely no barriers to overcome there!

I'm not ignoring it, but i don't believe they are trapped. And I hope you don't either.

Poverty is like a ravine: if you look up you can see the high cliffs stretching upwards, a seemingly impossible climb. You can either walk further downhill and it will only get deeper and harder to climb out, or you can take the risk of climbing out. It will be hard, and there's a risk you might fall when you're halfway up, many will find it too daunting and trudge on, never getting out only finding themselves in a deeper hole, some will attempt it and who dares, wins.

Lifting the minimum wage is like dumping dirt in the bottom of the ravine, it makes the top seem a bit closer, but to fill the ravine is impossible - unless you attempt the climb (change your mindset) you'll never get out.

There will never be pay equality - some jobs will always pay better. That's democracy. If you want pay find some communist country to move to

For the record, I'm all for this increase in the minimum wage, and I hope that in doing it in the time-frame of three years it won't have the repercussions that treasury forecast. But we would be deluded if we think it will fix poverty.

rjt123

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#1953495 8-Feb-2018 09:36

MikeB4:

If you believe there is no such thing as a poverty trap you need to remove your full face blacked out helmit and go out and look around.

I don't deny there is poverty. I never have.

I deny your presumption that they are trapped.

networkn

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#1953496 8-Feb-2018 09:40

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/101238392/grant-robertsons-uturn-on-public-debt-hints-at-deeper-concerns-about-debt

I am lost for words. Almost. How can anyone take these people seriously at this point!? I mean WT Actual F!?

After years of criticising National for a significant growth in Crown debt to more than $60 billion over the last decade, Robertson now seems to think the state of public debt is the best thing about the New Zealand economy.

As sharemarket turmoil in the United States spread around the world, Robertson said in an interview that he had real confidence in New Zealand's economic fundamentals.

"Essentially the low level of public debt is a really important part of it."

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