Does NZ need better gun laws?

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#1121493 4-Sep-2014 01:54

heylinb4nz:
jeffnz:
heylinb4nz:
had about enough of the insults hurled at the Police and suggesting target shooters are better suited so can we get back on topic or just start another thread on your opinions of the Police v target shooters

The thread is about gun laws in New Zealand.

The police are at the forefront of dicking around with our laws (in a bad way). So in that sense no insults, they are useless when it comes to enforcing and administering firearms laws, they push for bad laws, they unlawfully make up laws....AND they are woeful undertrained and bad at shooting (compared to the people they target with their useless behaviour) If you were a firearms owner and had to deal with them at the level we do you would see that they are completely useless for everything other than issuing traffic tickets and breaking up the odd domestic.

No insults

Pure fact.

being insulting again and based largely on your opinion unless you can show some facts that they are completely useless.

You sound like an authority on the Police and laws what are your qualifications to make such statements.

a) been studying firearms law and history pro and anti, past and present for close to 6 years
b) active member of various shooting organisations within NZ
c) been involved in submissions process on new laws AAB2 and AAB3
d) been on receiving end of bad law
e) dealings with numerous Arms officers
f) seen plenty of police and AOS training sessions \ qualifications at local club
g) media \ news (plenty of examples for public to see)
h) actively analyse flaws in NZ firearms law and bring to attention of Police
i) study of politics in NZ
j) study of United Nations mandates and agendas in regards to (Arms Trade Treaty and wider UN Agenda) Mabey its just my opinion, but I think my level of knowledge and first hand experiences are to the level where they could be considered factual. Its a big beast (even just the NZ system) but once you are involved in it, and study it, you realise its flaws. The average firearm owner barely goes deep enough to see the real truth.

I disagree with most of your assertions and strongly disagree with your claims that the police set firearms laws. NZ firearms law is among the best in the world. It is strict, fair, and well enforced. Like all laws, however, people break them. Unlawful possession and use occurs and no law change will change this.

If you want to know my qualifications for stating this, then here they are:

a) Been studying firearms law, effectiveness and enforcement past and present since I first became a licensed firearms owner in the 1990's;
b) Have been an active member of various shooting organisations and clubs both within NZ and internationally since the 1990's;
c) Founded FLAG (Firearms Legislation Action Group) in 1997 and toured the country holding public meetings informing people about the then proposed changes to firearms laws. Organised several hundred submissions and successfully lobbied for submission hearings to be held in Palmerston North to enable people from middle NZ to submit in person. Personally attended several city council meetings around the country to address councils and get them to drop plans for anti-gun bylaws. (A number of local government bodies were planning bylaw changes to make guns illegal in their areas - I believed, and still do, that this is a central government issue.)
d) I obey the law;
e) Dealings with several Arms officers, all of whom were good guys doing a good job;
f) Seen plenty of training sessions and know trainers;
I've travelled internationally to various shooting clubs and developed a sound understanding of firearms laws in different jurisdictions. Every country has illegal ownership/possession/use problems and its fair share of unhinged people. NZ is no different.

heylinb4nz

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#1121538 4-Sep-2014 08:37

Elpie:
heylinb4nz:
jeffnz:
heylinb4nz:
had about enough of the insults hurled at the Police and suggesting target shooters are better suited so can we get back on topic or just start another thread on your opinions of the Police v target shooters

The thread is about gun laws in New Zealand.

The police are at the forefront of dicking around with our laws (in a bad way). So in that sense no insults, they are useless when it comes to enforcing and administering firearms laws, they push for bad laws, they unlawfully make up laws....AND they are woeful undertrained and bad at shooting (compared to the people they target with their useless behaviour) If you were a firearms owner and had to deal with them at the level we do you would see that they are completely useless for everything other than issuing traffic tickets and breaking up the odd domestic.

No insults

Pure fact.

being insulting again and based largely on your opinion unless you can show some facts that they are completely useless.

You sound like an authority on the Police and laws what are your qualifications to make such statements.

a) been studying firearms law and history pro and anti, past and present for close to 6 years
b) active member of various shooting organisations within NZ
c) been involved in submissions process on new laws AAB2 and AAB3
d) been on receiving end of bad law
e) dealings with numerous Arms officers
f) seen plenty of police and AOS training sessions \ qualifications at local club
g) media \ news (plenty of examples for public to see)
h) actively analyse flaws in NZ firearms law and bring to attention of Police
i) study of politics in NZ
j) study of United Nations mandates and agendas in regards to (Arms Trade Treaty and wider UN Agenda) Mabey its just my opinion, but I think my level of knowledge and first hand experiences are to the level where they could be considered factual. Its a big beast (even just the NZ system) but once you are involved in it, and study it, you realise its flaws. The average firearm owner barely goes deep enough to see the real truth.

I disagree with most of your assertions and strongly disagree with your claims that the police set firearms laws. NZ firearms law is among the best in the world. It is strict, fair, and well enforced. Like all laws, however, people break them. Unlawful possession and use occurs and no law change will change this.

If you want to know my qualifications for stating this, then here they are:

a) Been studying firearms law, effectiveness and enforcement past and present since I first became a licensed firearms owner in the 1990's;
b) Have been an active member of various shooting organisations and clubs both within NZ and internationally since the 1990's;
c) Founded FLAG (Firearms Legislation Action Group) in 1997 and toured the country holding public meetings informing people about the then proposed changes to firearms laws. Organised several hundred submissions and successfully lobbied for submission hearings to be held in Palmerston North to enable people from middle NZ to submit in person. Personally attended several city council meetings around the country to address councils and get them to drop plans for anti-gun bylaws. (A number of local government bodies were planning bylaw changes to make guns illegal in their areas - I believed, and still do, that this is a central government issue.)
d) I obey the law;
e) Dealings with several Arms officers, all of whom were good guys doing a good job;
f) Seen plenty of training sessions and know trainers;
I've travelled internationally to various shooting clubs and developed a sound understanding of firearms laws in different jurisdictions. Every country has illegal ownership/possession/use problems and its fair share of unhinged people. NZ is no different.

What rock have you been living on ?

Did you forget about the whole THumbhole grip saga ? then the police having the law changed via AAB3 to allow them to classify anything as an MSSA at the stroke of a pen ?

Import permits required for Roni Kits (an accessory under law) just beacause police hq wanted to know who was getting them in.

The hand in policy (illegal) for e-cats and e cat parts.

Deliberately misinterpreting law to suit your own agenda is effectively changing law.

They also do it for boy racers and anyone they deem to be a boy racer.

Geektastic

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#1121544 4-Sep-2014 08:46

I agree - the police most assuredly DO interpret and attempt to alter firearms law to suit their own agenda.

Any shooter who has a restricted category (I have B & E) will tell you that Arms Officers in different places interpret things very differently to suit their own world view.

I have a shooting friend who got into a beef with the Police over the hand in policy - in the end his solicitor wrote to them demanding that they produce the law that allowed them to insist on the hand in. Guess what happened next...!

It is not the role of the police to interpret law or to make law. That is what Parliament is for.

MikeB4

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#1121579 4-Sep-2014 09:05

It amuses me and annoys me how folks criticise and insult the Police from the safety of their basements or bedrooms, if these same people had to face and deal with what the Police do daily they would run crying to their basements and or bedrooms.

Then when they hear at noise at night they call who? Those very people they put down.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

jeffnz

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#1121634 4-Sep-2014 10:02

KiwiNZ: It amuses me and annoys me how folks criticise and insult the Police from the safety of their basements or bedrooms, if these same people had to face and deal with what the Police do daily they would run crying to their basements and or bedrooms.

Then when they hear at noise at night they call who? Those very people they put down.

couldn't agree more

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#1121638 4-Sep-2014 10:11

hangon:
mattwnz:
I suspect it is the media jumping on the story. However I think if there was another similar massacre in the next few days, I think people would be questioning our gun laws more.

What are we questioning for? What can be done to the gun law that would've prevented John Henry Tully from doing what he did?

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Coil

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#1121639 4-Sep-2014 10:12

Does NZ need better citizens, I doubt a gun law will make anything better. If anything make a black market and easy to obtain guns, There goes all your full auto guns into circulation.

DravidDavid

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#1121710 4-Sep-2014 11:31

TimA: Does NZ need better citizens, I doubt a gun law will make anything better. If anything make a black market and easy to obtain guns, There goes all your full auto guns into circulation.

Guns are not hard to come by in this country already. I don't think a new gun law will make illegal guns any more abundant than they are now. If a criminal wants a firearm, a criminal will get a firearm...Which is the problem. Criminals get to have them, but civilians don't.

heylinb4nz

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#1121712 4-Sep-2014 11:32

KiwiNZ: It amuses me and annoys me how folks criticise and insult the Police from the safety of their basements or bedrooms, if these same people had to face and deal with what the Police do daily they would run crying to their basements and or bedrooms.

Then when they hear at noise at night they call who? Those very people they put down.

I call Ghostbusters :)

Seriously though, when I criticize police i'm mainly criticizing their corrupt police HQ. no problem with frontline officers, just dont trust them with guns.

Dratsab

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#1121719 4-Sep-2014 11:46

hangon: What are we questioning for? What can be done to the gun law that would've prevented John Henry Tully from doing what he did?

The original post, which has been excessively deviated from, asserted the gun laws needed updating in light of the Ashburton shooting and past similar tragedies, then asked for peoples thoughts on the matter.

My POV is no - the gun laws don't need changing in light of these type of occurrences. The shootings referred and alluded to almost always involve someone who is not licensed and has unlawfully obtained their firearms. There's plenty more people like them out there and a change in laws will not make a jot of difference to how they think or operate. What any changes are likely to do is simply make things harder for the tens of thousands of law abiding citizens who own firearms and use them responsibly.

Coil

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#1121727 4-Sep-2014 12:02

DravidDavid:
TimA: Does NZ need better citizens, I doubt a gun law will make anything better. If anything make a black market and easy to obtain guns, There goes all your full auto guns into circulation.

Guns are not hard to come by in this country already. I don't think a new gun law will make illegal guns any more abundant than they are now. If a criminal wants a firearm, a criminal will get a firearm...Which is the problem. Criminals get to have them, but civilians don't.

I got an Airsoft gun and have never had an issue with shooting it in my yard. My dad has/had guns and same with other friends. No issues with owing them. The licenses are easy to obtain given you have no record. But there are a lot of things that you need to keep a gun, E.g Bolts are in another location, Sometimes bullets too. Safe is bolted to the ground and locked at all times.

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Geektastic

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#1121728 4-Sep-2014 12:03

TimA:
DravidDavid:
TimA: Does NZ need better citizens, I doubt a gun law will make anything better. If anything make a black market and easy to obtain guns, There goes all your full auto guns into circulation.

Guns are not hard to come by in this country already. I don't think a new gun law will make illegal guns any more abundant than they are now. If a criminal wants a firearm, a criminal will get a firearm...Which is the problem. Criminals get to have them, but civilians don't.

I got an Airsoft gun and have never had an issue with shooting it in my yard. My dad has/had guns and same with other friends. No issues with owing them. The licenses are easy to obtain given you have no record. But there are a lot of things that you need to keep a gun, E.g Bolts are in another location, Sometimes bullets too. Safe is bolted to the ground and locked at all times.

Actually, a safe is not a requirement unless you have pistols or MSSA firearms. You merely need to demonstrate that you have a secure place to store the gun.

Coil

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#1121732 4-Sep-2014 12:07

Geektastic:
TimA:
DravidDavid:
TimA: Does NZ need better citizens, I doubt a gun law will make anything better. If anything make a black market and easy to obtain guns, There goes all your full auto guns into circulation.

Guns are not hard to come by in this country already. I don't think a new gun law will make illegal guns any more abundant than they are now. If a criminal wants a firearm, a criminal will get a firearm...Which is the problem. Criminals get to have them, but civilians don't.

I got an Airsoft gun and have never had an issue with shooting it in my yard. My dad has/had guns and same with other friends. No issues with owing them. The licenses are easy to obtain given you have no record. But there are a lot of things that you need to keep a gun, E.g Bolts are in another location, Sometimes bullets too. Safe is bolted to the ground and locked at all times.

Actually, a safe is not a requirement unless you have pistols or MSSA firearms. You merely need to demonstrate that you have a secure place to store the gun.

I have seen many people denied for not having one in an urban area. These days i would suggest its required. The process is extremely comprehensive. The MSSA firearms need to be bolted to the ground etc.

DravidDavid

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#1121746 4-Sep-2014 12:10

TimA: I got an Airsoft gun and have never had an issue with shooting it in my yard. My dad has/had guns and same with other friends. No issues with owing them. The licenses are easy to obtain given you have no record. But there are a lot of things that you need to keep a gun, E.g Bolts are in another location, Sometimes bullets too. Safe is bolted to the ground and locked at all times.

I've never had an issue with airsoft guns either. Althought I've always made a point of telling my neighbors I own them and that they are not real. There have been cases where AOS have shown up to halloween parties based on a knee jerk reaction from neighbors thinking the props were real.

Unless you are under 18, you don't need a license for airsoft pistols or rifles...Unless that's changed.

Coil

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#1121747 4-Sep-2014 12:12

DravidDavid:
TimA: I got an Airsoft gun and have never had an issue with shooting it in my yard. My dad has/had guns and same with other friends. No issues with owing them. The licenses are easy to obtain given you have no record. But there are a lot of things that you need to keep a gun, E.g Bolts are in another location, Sometimes bullets too. Safe is bolted to the ground and locked at all times.

I've never had an issue with airsoft guns either. Althought I've always made a point of telling my neighbors I own them and that they are not real. There have been cases where AOS have shown up to halloween parties based on a knee jerk reaction from neighbors thinking the props were real.

Unless you are under 18, you don't need a license for airsoft pistols or rifles...Unless that's changed.

Nope, Still no license.
I have not had AOS, A friend of mine got flash banged with AOS came in and beat them all. Then they all had turns shooting the targets with the Airsoft guns.

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