What could/should NZ do about the Kiwi detainees.

Forums › Off topic › What could/should NZ do about the Kiwi detainees.

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#1427575 13-Nov-2015 14:31

The visa rejection is not really an issue here. The problem is when you start shipping to an island when they might as well be in Australia proper during any appeal process.

What is the criteria for this island shipping anyway?

The general problem is that someone who may have a successful immigration appeal is going to be a lot less likely to succeed from an island away from family etc etc. I actually don't see the point of it.

frankv

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#1427590 13-Nov-2015 15:06

Whilst I tend to agree that there's not a great deal that John Key can actually do, I do agree that he's gutless and amoral in not making it a point. Whilst there is ONE child molester and some violent criminals amongst the Kiwi detainees, there are many that are deserving of assistance. And whatever happened to the concept that once you've done your time, you've paid your debt and your punishment is over?

I have no problem with Australia deporting a Kiwi when he finishes his 12 month sentence. During that 12 months, they can deal with the deportation issue and the appeals and all of that. When his time is up, either he walks out the door back to Australia, or is put onto a plane to NZ. But, where the crime (if there was even a crime) was way back in the past, why *can't* they appeal the deportation whilst they continue to lead productive lives in Australia? Why can't they be given (e.g.) 3 months to sort their lives out before they leave? Imagine if the NZ Govt said Aussies could only dispute their tax bill/criminal conviction/speeding ticket if they move to Australia.

It's disingenuous to say that "They are free to leave at anytime and return to NZ." Many have not been to NZ for decades, so it can hardly be said that they are "returning". Once deported, they can't re-enter Australia for 5 years, I think. If ever, maybe, given that they may have a jail term on their record. Imagine trying to sell your house/car/whatever in Aussie whilst in NZ. Imagine moving to NZ where you know no-one, whilst your family is in Australia.

I do think that what Australia is currently doing with detainees is not that different from what the USA was (is?) doing at Guantanamo Bay. Locking up people without trial, let alone conviction, for indefinite periods is an abuse of human rights. Whether it's legal or not, it is *wrong*. And on that basis alone, the NZ Govt should be assisting the citizens it is supposed to represent. Maybe we should change our flag, because there's precious little to be proud of about the current one in this scenario.

I think it's ironic that what Australia is doing is essentially the same as what Britain did in the 1800s, when it transported hundreds of political prisoners (notably the Irish) to Australia. Have the descendants of those victims of state oppression completely forgotten what was done to their own forefathers?

DizzyD

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#1427592 13-Nov-2015 15:14

frankv: Whilst I tend to agree that there's not a great deal that John Key can actually do, I do agree that he's gutless and amoral in not making it a point. Whilst there is ONE child molester and some violent criminals amongst the Kiwi detainees, there are many that are deserving of assistance. And whatever happened to the concept that once you've done your time, you've paid your debt and your punishment is over?

I have no problem with Australia deporting a Kiwi when he finishes his 12 month sentence. During that 12 months, they can deal with the deportation issue and the appeals and all of that. When his time is up, either he walks out the door back to Australia, or is put onto a plane to NZ. But, where the crime (if there was even a crime) was way back in the past, why *can't* they appeal the deportation whilst they continue to lead productive lives in Australia? Why can't they be given (e.g.) 3 months to sort their lives out before they leave? Imagine if the NZ Govt said Aussies could only dispute their tax bill/criminal conviction/speeding ticket if they move to Australia.

It's disingenuous to say that "They are free to leave at anytime and return to NZ." Many have not been to NZ for decades, so it can hardly be said that they are "returning". Once deported, they can't re-enter Australia for 5 years, I think. If ever, maybe, given that they may have a jail term on their record. Imagine trying to sell your house/car/whatever in Aussie whilst in NZ. Imagine moving to NZ where you know no-one, whilst your family is in Australia.

I do think that what Australia is currently doing with detainees is not that different from what the USA was (is?) doing at Guantanamo Bay. Locking up people without trial, let alone conviction, for indefinite periods is an abuse of human rights. Whether it's legal or not, it is *wrong*. And on that basis alone, the NZ Govt should be assisting the citizens it is supposed to represent. Maybe we should change our flag, because there's precious little to be proud of about the current one in this scenario.

I think it's ironic that what Australia is doing is essentially the same as what Britain did in the 1800s, when it transported hundreds of political prisoners (notably the Irish) to Australia. Have the descendants of those victims of state oppression completely forgotten what was done to their own forefathers?

You missing one major point. New Zealand is also doing the same thing.

These are not Australian citizens, they illegally in Australia. Australia owes them nothing.
We do the same thing here to people that come to NZ and break their visa conditions, let alone become a criminal.

Figures provided under the Official Information Act show that 447 people from 54 different countries were deported from NZ after committing a crime between 2010 and August this year.

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#1427593 13-Nov-2015 15:16

nathan: On the face of it locking someone up just for joining a motorcycle club is outrageous

Maybe there's more to the story.

I think it depends on the club. The Honda Riders Club, yes. The Mongrel Mob? No. That is a criminal gang, not a motorcycle club. Membership should be illegal with a mandatory life sentence, no parole.

DizzyD

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#1427594 13-Nov-2015 15:19

"Motorcycle club". HAHA missed that one. Who are they kidding.

Geektastic

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#1427595 13-Nov-2015 15:19

DizzyD:
robcreid:

It is pretty normal for kiwi's who get themselves in trouble overseas, including committing crimes, to get a consular visit to make sure the are being treated fairly and assist them getting in contact with family and lawyers.

What? Pretty normal? None of these Kiwis on the island have been convicted for minor offences. (its manslaughter, armed robbery, grievous bodily harm and assaulting children and or women with a weapon).

The rioting of these thugs on the island just proves to me what these criminals are all about.

Besides. Why should they get consular assistance? They have the opportunity to come back to NZ if they want to but are opting against it. They choosing their circumstances.

As an aside, why in these days of 'fairness' and 'equality' is the gender of who you hit relevant? Violence is violence, surely?

DizzyD

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#1427596 13-Nov-2015 15:21

Geektastic:
DizzyD:
robcreid:

It is pretty normal for kiwi's who get themselves in trouble overseas, including committing crimes, to get a consular visit to make sure the are being treated fairly and assist them getting in contact with family and lawyers.

What? Pretty normal? None of these Kiwis on the island have been convicted for minor offences. (its manslaughter, armed robbery, grievous bodily harm and assaulting children and or women with a weapon).

The rioting of these thugs on the island just proves to me what these criminals are all about.

Besides. Why should they get consular assistance? They have the opportunity to come back to NZ if they want to but are opting against it. They choosing their circumstances.

As an aside, why in these days of 'fairness' and 'equality' is the gender of who you hit relevant? Violence is violence, surely?

Its not right to hit a women under any circumstances as far as I am concerned!

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meesham

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#1427611 13-Nov-2015 15:26

Just out of interest, some stats from the US:

2014 deportations: 315,943
2012 deportations: 409,849

Reasons:
Convicted Criminals - 225,390 (55%)
Immigration Fugitives - 10,423 (3%)
Repeat Immigration Violators - 86,405 (21%)
Border Removal - 69,957 (17%)
Other Removable Aliens - 17,674 (4%)

Geektastic

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#1427612 13-Nov-2015 15:26

Rikkitic: What everyone seems to be forgetting is that regardless of the crimes (some of) these people may have committed, they have Done Their Time. In the good old days, when democracies and justice and fair play still existed, the idea was that people who had served their sentences were supposed to be given a fresh start and a second chance. What is happening in Australia, unbelievably, is that people who have already completed their sentences are being imprisoned a second time with no semblance of due process. Even Peter Dunne thinks this is wrong.

Yes, but he's a bit of a wet!

It all seems very simple:

These people are NOT permanent residents or citizens, they are visitors.

Australia says "Hey Kiwis you can visit AND work! However if you misbehave in these ways we will revoke your visa and send you home." Were they permanent residents it would probably be much harder, and if they were citizens it would be more or less impossible.

The 200 people misbehaved. Australia wants to send them home. Australia is entitled to do so.

If you want the benefits of civil society, don't carry out criminal acts: seems extraordinarily simple.

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#1427614 13-Nov-2015 15:28

DizzyD:
Geektastic:
DizzyD:
robcreid:

It is pretty normal for kiwi's who get themselves in trouble overseas, including committing crimes, to get a consular visit to make sure the are being treated fairly and assist them getting in contact with family and lawyers.

What? Pretty normal? None of these Kiwis on the island have been convicted for minor offences. (its manslaughter, armed robbery, grievous bodily harm and assaulting children and or women with a weapon).

The rioting of these thugs on the island just proves to me what these criminals are all about.

Besides. Why should they get consular assistance? They have the opportunity to come back to NZ if they want to but are opting against it. They choosing their circumstances.

As an aside, why in these days of 'fairness' and 'equality' is the gender of who you hit relevant? Violence is violence, surely?

Its not right to hit a women under any circumstances as far as I am concerned!

I don't disagree.

I merely suggest that it isn't right to hit ANYONE under any circumstances other than self defence. The gender of the person being hit is (or now should be) irrelevant.

MikeB4

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#1427621 13-Nov-2015 15:35

DizzyD:
Geektastic:
DizzyD:
robcreid:

It is pretty normal for kiwi's who get themselves in trouble overseas, including committing crimes, to get a consular visit to make sure the are being treated fairly and assist them getting in contact with family and lawyers.

What? Pretty normal? None of these Kiwis on the island have been convicted for minor offences. (its manslaughter, armed robbery, grievous bodily harm and assaulting children and or women with a weapon).

The rioting of these thugs on the island just proves to me what these criminals are all about.

Besides. Why should they get consular assistance? They have the opportunity to come back to NZ if they want to but are opting against it. They choosing their circumstances.

As an aside, why in these days of 'fairness' and 'equality' is the gender of who you hit relevant? Violence is violence, surely?

Its not right to hit a women under any circumstances as far as I am concerned!

Its not right to hit anyone.

shk292

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#1427627 13-Nov-2015 15:44

Comparing this to Guantanamo is one step away from Godwin's principle. These people are free to leave whenever they like; they're just no longer welcome in Australia. No way John Key should be wasting political capital interfering in Australia's legal processes. It's not being spineless, it's being sensible.
The fact that these people have lived most of their lives in Australia but haven't had the common sense to obtain PR or citizenship does them no favours either

robcreid

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#1427639 13-Nov-2015 16:05

frankv: Whilst I tend to agree that there's not a great deal that John Key can actually do, I do agree that he's gutless and amoral in not making it a point.

And that's why I asked the initial question. I see plenty of people calling the John Key gutless and saying he should do something but I've not seen many suggestions as to what form that 'something' should take.

MikeB4

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#1427640 13-Nov-2015 16:09

robcreid:
frankv: Whilst I tend to agree that there's not a great deal that John Key can actually do, I do agree that he's gutless and amoral in not making it a point.

And that's why I asked the initial question. I see plenty of people calling the John Key gutless and saying he should do something but I've not seen many suggestions as to what form that 'something' should take.

We should declare War and Invade. However we will need to ask the RAN to give us logistic ships and landing craft to achieve this and the RAAF to give us F18 Hornets to provide Air cover
and some Leopard tanks from the Australian Army on loan would be useful, so other than that the campaign could go well. Just don't mention the Rugby.

sir1963

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#1427646 13-Nov-2015 16:13

robcreid: There is are fair amount of political grandstanding and partisan vitriol on both sides of this topic in other forums and I was hoping to avoid that here although that may be unavoidable. I just wanted to ask a question that I haven't really covered in the media although I'm happy to get links to info if I have missed it.

If NZ did decide to officially take issue with Aussie handling of the New Zealand citizens deportations what avenues would be available to us and what are the most likely to influence the Aussie politicians and/or public opinion?

Is there international legal possibilities or are Australia on relatively firm legal ground being able to deport non-citizens providing they give suitable due process?

Would some sort of UN objection be possible, or given our relatively close diplomatic ties would some sort of direct delegation be better received providing we could agree on the makeup of one?

Is anything likely to have any effect given how the Aussies seem to be digging their heels in on other issues like asylum seekers?

Well for a start John Key could say something about it publicly, and I do NOT mean his seeming support for the Australians.
There have been chances for him to do so in Parliament
There has been chance for him to do so in television/radio/print
There has been chances for him to do so via the UN and NZs seat on the security council.

As for him supporting "victims" well the victims are Aussies , so the aussies are getting support from him well before any NZer.
Worse the government has done ZERO about these people when they come back to NZ, no documenting them, no parole type conditions, hell they have no idea where any of the ones who have come back so far even live. Worse still is the removal of funding Keys government has done from various victim support services.

John Key is making UK PM Neville Chamberlain look like a hard liner.

John Key was very quick to shoot his mouth off about how there were murderers on Christmas Island when there were none (NZers)
But when it came to supporting his body guard..." yeah...at the end of the day....." avoidance.

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