The Thai cave boys

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#2049627 5-Jul-2018 11:23

Sounddude:

The Media diagrams I have seen suggests that they have to de-bottle. But I never trust what I read in the media these days :-)

Yes but de-bottle under or above water. If above - no problem.

Mike

MikeAqua

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#2049632 5-Jul-2018 11:26

kryptonjohn:

I've had horrible experiences getting wedged by my tank in tight spaces chasing crays... imagine being in dark muddy murk with a strong current, hundreds of meters to go, with no possibility of reversing out? Send sshivers down my spine thinking about it.

A guy I used to dive with (ex navy diver) had a long hose on his first stage (cable tied in a coil), so he could take it off and wriggle into holes after crayfish. I used to wait and old his BCD for him. Didn't like that very much.

Mike

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#2049634 5-Jul-2018 11:26

kryptonjohn:

networkn:

I wonder if they sedate them?

Interesting idea. With scuba you have all sorts of blood chemistry/gas saturation things to be wary of that are affected by depth and duration and one can imagine that medication could seriously complicate things. But yeah - anxiety, panic attacks, hyperventilation etc all big risks.

sedation definitely won't help.

a beta blocker however, now you're winning.

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#2049635 5-Jul-2018 11:27

Unless there are particular risks with snags maybe they could set them up with tanks to be dragged along behind them (with a following rescue diver keeping an eye on it) rather than strapped to their backs. No need for BCDs either. Strain-relief the air hose so it can't tug the mask off!

networkn

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#2049637 5-Jul-2018 11:27

kryptonjohn:

networkn:

I wonder if they sedate them?

Interesting idea. With scuba you have all sorts of blood chemistry/gas saturation things to be wary of that are affected by depth and duration and one can imagine that medication could seriously complicate things. But yeah - anxiety, panic attacks, hyperventilation etc all big risks.

Chances are sedation under medical care would be a LOT safer than someone having a panic attack in a small space. I am not talking knocking them out, I am talking about something like tramadol which leaves you concious, but in a semi sleepy state.

Whilst I am sure the people doing the rescues understand the risks, it's dangerous for the rescuers if the person being rescued has a panic attack.

kryptonjohn

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#2049650 5-Jul-2018 11:43

networkn:

kryptonjohn:

networkn:

I wonder if they sedate them?

Interesting idea. With scuba you have all sorts of blood chemistry/gas saturation things to be wary of that are affected by depth and duration and one can imagine that medication could seriously complicate things. But yeah - anxiety, panic attacks, hyperventilation etc all big risks.

Chances are sedation under medical care would be a LOT safer than someone having a panic attack in a small space. I am not talking knocking them out, I am talking about something like tramadol which leaves you concious, but in a semi sleepy state.

Whilst I am sure the people doing the rescues understand the risks, it's dangerous for the rescuers if the person being rescued has a panic attack.

Hopefully they'll have diving medicine specialists on involved...

kryptonjohn

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#2049652 5-Jul-2018 11:46

MikeAqua:

kryptonjohn:

I've had horrible experiences getting wedged by my tank in tight spaces chasing crays... imagine being in dark muddy murk with a strong current, hundreds of meters to go, with no possibility of reversing out? Send sshivers down my spine thinking about it.

A guy I used to dive with (ex navy diver) had a long hose on his first stage (cable tied in a coil), so he could take it off and wriggle into holes after crayfish. I used to wait and old his BCD for him. Didn't like that very much.

I once got wedged in a crack - my tank made a very effective ratchet pawl. There was no way I was getting out with the tank on. Fortunately I had enough room to undo the buckle and get out of the BCD and slip back, but unlike your mate my 1st stage line was not long enough so had to lose it. It was only 15' deep so got away with it... Apparently back on the boat I was as white as a sheet.

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#2049657 5-Jul-2018 11:54

kryptonjohn:

networkn:

kryptonjohn:

networkn:

I wonder if they sedate them?

Interesting idea. With scuba you have all sorts of blood chemistry/gas saturation things to be wary of that are affected by depth and duration and one can imagine that medication could seriously complicate things. But yeah - anxiety, panic attacks, hyperventilation etc all big risks.

Chances are sedation under medical care would be a LOT safer than someone having a panic attack in a small space. I am not talking knocking them out, I am talking about something like tramadol which leaves you concious, but in a semi sleepy state.

Whilst I am sure the people doing the rescues understand the risks, it's dangerous for the rescuers if the person being rescued has a panic attack.

Hopefully they'll have diving medicine specialists on involved...

all equipped with miniature hydrophobic breathing machines

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#2049699 5-Jul-2018 12:16

Hats off to Richard Stanton and John Volanthen.

Give them a(nother) medal.

Did Eric Clapton really think she looked wonderful...or was it after the 15th outfit she tried on and he just wanted to get to the party and get a drink?

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#2049701 5-Jul-2018 12:18

floydbloke:

Hats off to Richard Stanton and John Volanthen.

Give them a(nother) medal.

This will be their most difficult task yet.

networkn

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#2049702 5-Jul-2018 12:18

floydbloke:

Hats off to Richard Stanton and John Volanthen.

Give them a(nother) medal.

I didn't know who they were, but now I looked, I agree, I'd feel happy having them rescue my kids!

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#2049741 5-Jul-2018 13:08

I don't see how swimming the boys (or zipping them (sedated or not) up in bags to be dragged through) is feasible.

A TV soundbite said that it took the rescuers 8 hours underwater from one air-breathing place to the next.That's life-threatening if you have any problem with your tanks. An 8-hour transit for one diver means at least 16 hours worth of air, probably more for safety. According to Google, an "ordinary" tank seems to last about an hour, so presumably there's special tanks which might be good for a couple or 3 hours? Nevertheless, there's a *lot* of air tanks to be ferried in.

It becomes a difficult Everest-style logistics problem. Getting a diver-load of stuff to the far end of an 8-hour swim costs maybe 10 tanks & 16 hours diving, plus 8 hours sleep. It appears that there are 2 or 3 swims? Maybe a diver could transport 4 full tanks at a time? So the diver does 3 trips (3 days) through the first swim to get 12 full tanks to the start of the second swim.

Presumably that explains the "Advanced Base Camp" set up well into the cave. Maybe they have a compressor there to refill air tanks?

But the same applies to food and water and bedding and medical and other supplies. Keeping the boys alive is going to cost a lot of resources too.

MikeAqua

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#2049743 5-Jul-2018 13:10

networkn:

Chances are sedation under medical care would be a LOT safer than someone having a panic attack in a small space. I am not talking knocking them out, I am talking about something like tramadol which leaves you concious, but in a semi sleepy state.

Whilst I am sure the people doing the rescues understand the risks, it's dangerous for the rescuers if the person being rescued has a panic attack.

I've taken tramadol and it made me hyper-vigilant and anxious. It messes with the serotonin system. I'm not sure it would reliably have the effect you predict. After one day on the stuff I decided to stick with panadol and took it back to the pharmacy.

Also ...

It can suppress breathing

It can cause nausea/vomitting

It can also make people feel light-headed/dizzy

Mike

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#2049754 5-Jul-2018 13:15

MikeAqua:

networkn:

Chances are sedation under medical care would be a LOT safer than someone having a panic attack in a small space. I am not talking knocking them out, I am talking about something like tramadol which leaves you concious, but in a semi sleepy state.

Whilst I am sure the people doing the rescues understand the risks, it's dangerous for the rescuers if the person being rescued has a panic attack.

I've taken tramadol and it made me hyper-vigilant and anxious. It messes with the serotonin system. I'm not sure it would reliably have the effect you predict. After one day on the stuff I decided to stick with panadol and took it back to the pharmacy.

Also ...

It can suppress breathing

It can cause nausea/vomitting

It can also make people feel light-headed/dizzy

Right, I was using that as ONE example of a drug they could use. Its the concept I was trying to introduce, not the actual brand and dose!

I don't take Tramadol because it makes me floppy and lethargic for 2 days, but I have a low tolerance to these sort of drugs for some reason (high to others). I could imagine I would be in a suitable state to transport if I was like this.

MikeAqua

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#2049819 5-Jul-2018 14:11

networkn:

Right, I was using that as ONE example of a drug they could use. Its the concept I was trying to introduce, not the actual brand and dose!

A sedative might be better than an opioid pain killer.

Mike

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