The Thai cave boys

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#2049831 5-Jul-2018 14:28

networkn:

kryptonjohn:

networkn:

I wonder if they sedate them?

Interesting idea. With scuba you have all sorts of blood chemistry/gas saturation things to be wary of that are affected by depth and duration and one can imagine that medication could seriously complicate things. But yeah - anxiety, panic attacks, hyperventilation etc all big risks.

Chances are sedation under medical care would be a LOT safer than someone having a panic attack in a small space. I am not talking knocking them out, I am talking about something like tramadol which leaves you concious, but in a semi sleepy state.

Whilst I am sure the people doing the rescues understand the risks, it's dangerous for the rescuers if the person being rescued has a panic attack.

Tramadol,

mmm nope.

Lets not give an opiate with respiratory depressant effects (and minimal anxiolytic effects) to a child. (FDA has use in under 12 contraindicated because of concerns about genetic polymorphisms and variable response in young people)

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#2049833 5-Jul-2018 14:31

networkn:

MikeAqua:

networkn:

Chances are sedation under medical care would be a LOT safer than someone having a panic attack in a small space. I am not talking knocking them out, I am talking about something like tramadol which leaves you concious, but in a semi sleepy state.

Whilst I am sure the people doing the rescues understand the risks, it's dangerous for the rescuers if the person being rescued has a panic attack.

I've taken tramadol and it made me hyper-vigilant and anxious. It messes with the serotonin system. I'm not sure it would reliably have the effect you predict. After one day on the stuff I decided to stick with panadol and took it back to the pharmacy.

Also ...

It can suppress breathing

It can cause nausea/vomitting

It can also make people feel light-headed/dizzy

Right, I was using that as ONE example of a drug they could use. Its the concept I was trying to introduce, not the actual brand and dose!

I don't take Tramadol because it makes me floppy and lethargic for 2 days, but I have a low tolerance to these sort of drugs for some reason (high to others). I could imagine I would be in a suitable state to transport if I was like this.

You were making a suggestion outside your field of expertise. (like many on the internet ;-p )

Partially sedated/anaesthetised patients are potentially more difficult to deal with than fully anaesthetised. They move, they panic, they vomit etc

paulchinnz

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#2050229 6-Jul-2018 01:23

Sorry if I've missed something obvious ... but what were they doing in those caves? I see the wikipedia page states there's a sign advising against entry in July because of the rainy season.

I'm mildly unhappy with the assistant coach.

Bung

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#2050233 6-Jul-2018 05:51

If the sign said July he's OK as they went in on 23rd of June :-)

Some reports claim that the boys could outside noises meaning another opening could exist. I wonder if this was wishful thinking or "fake news".

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#2050235 6-Jul-2018 07:12

paulchinnz:

Sorry if I've missed something obvious ... but what were they doing in those caves? I see the wikipedia page states there's a sign advising against entry in July because of the rainy season.

I'm mildly unhappy with the assistant coach.

In general, you don't enter such caves ... But no i don't know if there were signs or not. In general if the caves flood, you die. The coach might have known that.

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#2050238 6-Jul-2018 07:27

frankv:

I don't see how swimming the boys (or zipping them (sedated or not) up in bags to be dragged through) is feasible.

A TV soundbite said that it took the rescuers 8 hours underwater from one air-breathing place to the next.That's life-threatening if you have any problem with your tanks. An 8-hour transit for one diver means at least 16 hours worth of air, probably more for safety. According to Google, an "ordinary" tank seems to last about an hour, so presumably there's special tanks which might be good for a couple or 3 hours? Nevertheless, there's a *lot* of air tanks to be ferried in.

It becomes a difficult Everest-style logistics problem. Getting a diver-load of stuff to the far end of an 8-hour swim costs maybe 10 tanks & 16 hours diving, plus 8 hours sleep. It appears that there are 2 or 3 swims? Maybe a diver could transport 4 full tanks at a time? So the diver does 3 trips (3 days) through the first swim to get 12 full tanks to the start of the second swim.

Presumably that explains the "Advanced Base Camp" set up well into the cave. Maybe they have a compressor there to refill air tanks?

But the same applies to food and water and bedding and medical and other supplies. Keeping the boys alive is going to cost a lot of resources too.

Disclaimer - non diver!

Not sure if ballast weight is required for light malnourished boys carrying so much ?air/oxygen.

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#2050274 6-Jul-2018 09:13

paulchinnz:

Sorry if I've missed something obvious ... but what were they doing in those caves? I see the wikipedia page states there's a sign advising against entry in July because of the rainy season.

I'm mildly unhappy with the assistant coach.

I read that there's a wall inside the cave where young boys write their names as some sort of initiation/right of passage. Some people think that's what they were doing.

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#2050288 6-Jul-2018 09:24

Batman:

Not sure if ballast weight is required for light malnourished boys carrying so much ?air/oxygen.

Weights are used to compensate the buoyancy of wetsuits. If the water's warm they mightn't use wetsuits anyway, However if they need to swim down to get through sunken passages, being buoyant becomes a problem.

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#2050296 6-Jul-2018 09:29

They are getting suits sent it, in case they have to use them re Saturday rains. Rescue team says its feasible for basic training, and I think they want to run a rope along the route. Its political as if they use the suits now and there are fatalities....or if they wait and the caves flood out and there are fatalities... Whoever makes the call needs to get buy in from everyone, from the Govt, the dive team and the families, so if it goes wrong, there is no blame

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#2050329 6-Jul-2018 10:16

the true heroes are those rescuers who are actually risking their lives going in, nevermind rescuing the exhausted group

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#2050330 6-Jul-2018 10:22

Batman:

the true heroes are those rescuers who are actually risking their lives going in, nevermind rescuing the exhausted group

Yep it was an incredible feat and display of bravery. Pushing into dark underwater confined spaces, not knowing what was ahead... yikes!

At least now they should have ropes to follow.

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#2050336 6-Jul-2018 10:25

kryptonjohn:

Batman:

the true heroes are those rescuers who are actually risking their lives going in, nevermind rescuing the exhausted group

Yep it was an incredible feat and display of bravery. Pushing into dark underwater confined spaces, not knowing what was ahead... yikes!

At least now they should have ropes to follow.

in my mind, still doesn't make it any safer, but yes, at least they know which way to head

tdgeek

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#2050337 6-Jul-2018 10:29

Batman:

kryptonjohn:

Batman:

the true heroes are those rescuers who are actually risking their lives going in, nevermind rescuing the exhausted group

Yep it was an incredible feat and display of bravery. Pushing into dark underwater confined spaces, not knowing what was ahead... yikes!

At least now they should have ropes to follow.

in my mind, still doesn't make it any safer, but yes, at least they know which way to head

And with a rope they should have less tendency to panic, as the rope is the lifeline, pun not intended. Rather than being suspended and hoping, even though a diver will be present. Its a huge feeling of security that you are holding something that you know secures you to the other end, literally and figuratively

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#2050338 6-Jul-2018 10:30

Really? Far, far safer in my mind. You can't get lost for one thing. That would be of considerable comfort and reduce stress/anxiety to know you are on your way to freedom. For another it is something to pull along on which would reduce fatigue and assist with getting through tight spaces where you can't propel yourself with arms and leg kicks. A literal and figurative life line. Huge benefits.

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#2050345 6-Jul-2018 10:43

kryptonjohn:

Really? Far, far safer in my mind. You can't get lost for one thing. That would be of considerable comfort and reduce stress/anxiety to know you are on your way to freedom. For another it is something to pull along on which would reduce fatigue and assist with getting through tight spaces where you can't propel yourself with arms and leg kicks. A literal and figurative life line. Huge benefits.

2 things

Current.

These things are not your wave pool. They pull with forces that you cannot imagine.

Obstacles.

You may have a rope, but if you get stuck or something is caught, it's very easy to die.

Equipment failure ... I'm sure everybody has thought of that so I won't mention it.

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