What could/should NZ do about the Kiwi detainees.

Forums › Off topic › What could/should NZ do about the Kiwi detainees.

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#1430584 18-Nov-2015 19:23

DarthKermit: The govt could put on a big ticker-tape parade for our returning citizens, like they did with the rugby guys recently.

Perhaps we could use "Police Tape".... :-)

Linuxluver

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#1430608 18-Nov-2015 19:51

meesham:
sir1963:
I would be more comfortable knowing that a government worked well within the law, and more importantly allowed the police and the courts to do their job without political interference.

"reasonably suspects" is a long way from proof, hell people have even been freed from prison as new evidence has proven a jury of 12 has been wrong. What would the minister do here, deport them because for the last x many years they had been associating with criminals while wrongly convicted in prison.

Whats next, throwing anyone of the muslim faith out on the suspicion they might break the law ?

As I linked previously, NZ has similar conditions in their "character requirements" - if the Minister decides you're a risk they can reject your visa application without you having committed a crime. The UK have similar rules and I'd imagine most countries would have these conditions (but I've not checked).

I don't agree with using Christmas Island, I don't see the point of it and I agree with most of the points made about it - but my sympathy is with the genuine refugee applicants that have to be there while they wait to hear if they'll be accepted.

I see the retroactive aspect as very unfair. OK, change the threshold from 2 years in jail down to one year.....but implement it from tomorrow. Don't go about rounding up people who got out of jail months ago on short sentences - with their family and back at work - and deporting them.

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turnin

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#1430706 18-Nov-2015 21:39

What does international human rights commission , and for that matter international law say about detaining people without charge ?
I'd like to see how much serco spent lobbying the au govt as they certainly have done in other countries in order to keep their prisons /venues full. Human rights are not mutually exclusive to clean records, if that's to be the case they should change the law and inform the public prior.
Our own pm suggested that it was not worth bringing this up via a "third party" (referring to the human rights commission) which is odd given his quite common facilitation of third party's on other matters and that close on 70 countries have raised this same issue with the ihrc and the UN.
Australias stance on asylum seekers is harsh , I realise it is a difficult issue but people seeking asylum are not doing it for a change of scenery.

Geektastic

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#1430759 18-Nov-2015 23:01

turnin: What does international human rights commission , and for that matter international law say about detaining people without charge ?
I'd like to see how much serco spent lobbying the au govt as they certainly have done in other countries in order to keep their prisons /venues full. Human rights are not mutually exclusive to clean records, if that's to be the case they should change the law and inform the public prior.
Our own pm suggested that it was not worth bringing this up via a "third party" (referring to the human rights commission) which is odd given his quite common facilitation of third party's on other matters and that close on 70 countries have raised this same issue with the ihrc and the UN.
Australias stance on asylum seekers is harsh , I realise it is a difficult issue but people seeking asylum are not doing it for a change of scenery.

What does it matter what it says? It's words on a piece of paper that can be ignored at will. It has only the importance that individual governments choose to give it - in this case, not a lot.

In any case, the law of Australia (probably - I have not read it and IANAL) was correctly enacted to say that persons with no visas are to be detained until they exhaust their appeals and are then to be deported. That is not detention without charge.

Geektastic

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#1430760 18-Nov-2015 23:04

Rikkitic: If we go to war, then surrender, we will be conquered and become part of Australia. Then deportees can live wherever they like.

True - although we could probably just ask them if we can join.

We should try and harmonise more than we do IMO.

turnin

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#1430796 19-Nov-2015 00:05

I think your words on paper argument needs a little ..... Oh never mind.

Kyanar

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#1430803 19-Nov-2015 01:36

Rikkitic: If we go to war, then surrender, we will be conquered and become part of Australia. Then deportees can live wherever they like.

That's completely unnecessary. All it would take is a single act of (NZ) Parliament to utterly dissolve the sovereign nation of New Zealand and make it part of Australia. Australia literally wouldn't even get a choice in the matter because the Constitution already includes New Zealand as a state. On page one.

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old3eyes

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#1430911 19-Nov-2015 08:43

Kyanar:
Rikkitic: If we go to war, then surrender, we will be conquered and become part of Australia. Then deportees can live wherever they like.

That's completely unnecessary. All it would take is a single act of (NZ) Parliament to utterly dissolve the sovereign nation of New Zealand and make it part of Australia. Australia literally wouldn't even get a choice in the matter because the Constitution already includes New Zealand as a state. On page one.

Won't happen. Can you imagine john Key or the like just being a state governor and not getting to hob nob with the world elite. The NZ polys are too wedded to their perks..

Regards,

Old3eyes

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#1431015 19-Nov-2015 11:10

Why would anyone want to be a part of Australia? Have you actually lived there under their system?

Rikkitic

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#1431069 19-Nov-2015 12:17

I have heard (don't know if it is true) that when the Federation was formed, Australia so assumed NZ would want to join that they didn't even bother to ask and were very put out when we said 'no, thank you'.

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sir1963

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#1431089 19-Nov-2015 13:13

Rikkitic: I have heard (don't know if it is true) that when the Federation was formed, Australia so assumed NZ would want to join that they didn't even bother to ask and were very put out when we said 'no, thank you'.

http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/page/nz-says-no-aussie-federation

And another 100+ years later things have not changed, we are STILL superior

MikeAqua

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#1431092 19-Nov-2015 13:20

Wow. From an immigration issue to trans-Tasman war and assimilation of NZ into Australia in one thread ...

The way I see it: -

Australia are being tough, but are consistent with their own law.
These people are legally visitors with an entitlement to work who never left.
If you are visitor to another country you break the law (which includes associating with criminal gangs) at your peril, don't whine about the consequences.

Were most of the 'detainees' unaware of the consequences of their unlawful actions? Probably, but ignorance of the law has never been a defense.

Is this a racist policy? Probably not.

Does it reflect the socio-economic disparities that exist in most/all countries. Probably yes.

Mike

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#1431112 19-Nov-2015 13:44

I suspect every policy in Australia has at least an element of racism in it.

I think what people are getting indignant about here, and certainly I am, is the aspect of people being taken to Australia through no choice of their own when infants or toddlers and having grown up there. I doubt most of them even realised they weren't 'real' Aussies when they fell afoul of the law. Most people like that probably don't visit their local libraries to read up on the technicalities of the law. When you grow up in a place and spend all of your life there, you probably just assume it is where you belong.

No excuse for crime, of course, but people (especially young people) do make dumb mistakes and it seems that a very wide range of misdeeds is being lumped together here under the 'crime' label. There is also the retroactive aspect of this. These people are also unlikely to check the news for the latest decisions of Parliament before setting out on their crime sprees, but it seems plausible that some word of the new 'tough' approach will filter down to the streets. Those currently caught up in this will not have had the benefit of that warning. The policy stinks and is unjust. It is as simple as that.

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MikeAqua

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#1431115 19-Nov-2015 13:47

If you have evidence of racism in policies please present it.

It's an easy and emotive card to play, but rarely backed up.

Mike

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#1431126 19-Nov-2015 14:02

Australia has a history of institutional racism. Ask any aboriginal or early Asian immigrant.

My personal opinion, not based on academic research but developed from anecdotal experience, is that the society has a whole is still significantly racist. None of my ozzie friends are, as far as I know, otherwise they wouldn't be my friends. Neither are many, many other individual Australians. But overall I think it is still a racist country. That is just my opinion.

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