car accident.. am i liable?

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#684059 10-Sep-2012 18:58

Totally guessing here but it seems the basic problem was the OP interpreted (if seen at all) the road marking in OP's lane on the approach as indicating OP could continue left into the straight. This is not a difficult interpretation to understand and anyone could make the assumption at this point of the road.

The road marking in the other lane (http://goo.gl/maps/WFkoG) if seen does give a better idea of the structure of the upcoming roadway. But this is easy to miss or obscured by something like a bus.

Someone has noticed the number of accidents here and erected the green sign (http://goo.gl/maps/mlxzRin an attempt to provide more information and reduce the accident rate. The green sign is informational only and intended to give warning about the layout of the road ahead.

Really a red/black regulatory sign is needed here directing what is and is not allowed. It would get more attention than an information sign and semantically define the correct behavior. My guess is there is no standard red/black regulatory sign for this purpose with wiggly lines on it so a more flexible green one is used as a compromise.

Another OP factor may be experience coming from the other direction and assuming the rules are consistent from each direction. OP may have believed the intersection behaved the same from both approaches and expected the bus to head west like it would from the other direction.

It's interesting looking at it closer to the turn: http://goo.gl/maps/K7dko. If there are lanes here they are marked straight ahead. So again - it is easy to see how a belief could have continued. The OP is expecting the bus to go straight by following the marked lines.

If you were looking at that picture without prior knowledge of the intersection you would say the bus must wait on the left until the OP has passed before making the turn right and across the right hand lane. In reality you would not expect the bus to make that turn at all from the picture.

Maybe I don't drive often enough - guess what - 10 minutes in the car today - complete change of mind from before!

I hope this turns out well for everyone.

ajobbins

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#684367 11-Sep-2012 13:35

Why are the incoming lanes from Cranmer Sq not the other way around? That way, if traffic wants to go left onto Kilmore then continue straight in either lane, fine. If you want to then make the right hand turn onto Montreal St you can do it from the right hand lane without crossing another lane of traffic.

Am I missing something?

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KevinL

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#684368 11-Sep-2012 13:38

ajobbins: Why are the incoming lanes from Cranmer Sq not the other way around? That way, if traffic wants to go left onto Kilmore then continue straight in either lane, fine. If you want to then make the right hand turn onto Montreal St you can do it from the right hand lane without crossing another lane of traffic.

Am I missing something?

Because Cranmer Square is actually the continuation of Montreal Street - it's a detour around a park. If you only allowed right turning traffic from the right hand lane (and not the left), then you introduce a bottleneck into the otherwise dual-laned street.

gzt

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#684369 11-Sep-2012 13:40

They are actually the way you are suggesting: http://goo.gl/maps/WFkoG

KevinL

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#684371 11-Sep-2012 13:42

gzt: They are actually the way you are suggesting: http://goo.gl/maps/WFkoG

They are not, the left lane is clearly marked for left turning traffic into Kilmore Street; both left and right lanes are marked to continue onto Montreal Street.

mattwnz

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#684372 11-Sep-2012 13:51

gzt: The green sign is informational only and intended to give warning about the layout of the road ahead. .

I would have thought that that green sign would have been on the other side of the road, or maybe both sides. A bus could obscure it for people on the left, and it is a very important sign in the context of the next intersection.

They could probably easily fix this by making only traffic in the right lane right turning or straight, and the left straight only, or make it the same no matter which way you approach the intersection.

KevinL

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#684373 11-Sep-2012 13:53

mattwnz:
gzt: The green sign is informational only and intended to give warning about the layout of the road ahead. .

I would have thought that that green sign would have been on the other side of the road, or maybe both sides. A bus could obscure it for people on the left, and it is a very important sign in the context of the next intersection.

Only people in the right lane are at any risk of making a mistake, though - hence the sign is more important for them.

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mattwnz

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#684375 11-Sep-2012 13:59

KevinL:
mattwnz:
gzt: The green sign is informational only and intended to give warning about the layout of the road ahead. .

I would have thought that that green sign would have been on the other side of the road, or maybe both sides. A bus could obscure it for people on the left, and it is a very important sign in the context of the next intersection.

Only people in the right lane are at any risk of making a mistake, though - hence the sign is more important for them.

That is true, but the ones in the left would also want to know they can turn right, which isn't clear at the actual intersection since no arrows or lane lines.

KevinL

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#684376 11-Sep-2012 14:03

I really get the impression that we're over-analysing the intersection, which while somewhat poorly designed, is in fairly regular use without causing daily chaos.

The two key points in my mind are:

a) Cranmer Square is the continuation of Montreal Street - if you were travelling Montreal to Montreal, which presumably the majority of traffic would be, it isn't a difficult logical step particularly with the signage.

b) As a general rule, if you want to turn left, you should be in the left lane. If you want to turn right, you should be in the right lane. The path of least resistance is the safest!

mattwnz

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#684397 11-Sep-2012 14:28

KevinL: If you want to turn right, you should be in the right lane. ?The path of least resistance is the safest!

That is true, that is why I think that it should be right laned traffic only that is allowed to turn right, unlike the bus which we were told was in left lane and turning right. Otherwise they probably need traffic lights to show this.

KevinL

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#684401 11-Sep-2012 14:34

mattwnz:
KevinL: If you want to turn right, you should be in the right lane. ?The path of least resistance is the safest!

That is true, that is why I think that it should be right laned traffic only that is allowed to turn right, unlike the bus which we were told was in left lane and turning right. Otherwise they probably need traffic lights to show this.

I think the point which people seem to be missing is that Montreal Street = Cranmer Square = Montreal Street. Presumably that's why they have designed the approach from Cranmer Square and exit onto Montreal Street are both angled and not 90 degree turns - it is a continuous road with a slight chicane.

The bus wasn't turning, it was continuing straight onto Montreal Street. The OP in the right lane was turning left, across the path of the bus. Yes, the intersection is a bit confusing if you've never come across it before - but that's why it's clearly marked on the road and signposted.

gzt

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#684455 11-Sep-2012 16:03

KevinL: The bus wasn't turning, it was continuing straight onto Montreal Street. The OP in the right lane was turning left, across the path of the bus. Yes, the intersection is a bit confusing if you've never come across it before - but that's why it's clearly marked on the road and signposted.

The above is semantically true once you have defined the correct behavior - but it is not true in a physical sense.

There is no doubt the bus was turning. After the turn it would have continued on Montreal Street.

The OP was following the road markings and going in a straight line.

An accident was the result. There are no doubt a large number of near misses and just in time corrections in additiona to accidents.

I have seen other instances where the same road name continues after a dog leg. Some legs be quite long and it would be madness to apply this one way scheme to them without a free left and island system.

KevinL

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#684474 11-Sep-2012 16:37

gzt:
KevinL: The bus wasn't turning, it was continuing straight onto Montreal Street. The OP in the right lane was turning left, across the path of the bus. Yes, the intersection is a bit confusing if you've never come across it before - but that's why it's clearly marked on the road and signposted.

The above is semantically true once you have defined the correct behavior - but it is not true in a physical sense.

There is no doubt the bus was turning. After the turn it would have continued on Montreal Street.

The OP was following the road markings and going in a straight line.

An accident was the result. There are no doubt a large number of near misses and just in time corrections in additiona to accidents.

I have seen other instances where the same road name continues after a dog leg. Some legs be quite long and it would be madness to apply this one way scheme to them without a free left and island system.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this point - in my mind, the OP was making a left turn from the right lane, across the established direction of traffic as dictated by the road markings and signage.

It'll be interesting what the outcome of the insurance assessment is!

gzt

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#684546 11-Sep-2012 18:28

Yeah, nah, I think we mostly agree the intersection is bad one.

As for liability - beyond what we discussed already - to some extent it may depend on the exact positioning of the car and bus - but in any case no lawyer will ever post a legal opinion online so we have the field entirely to ourselves there.

Also - while there is plenty of material for a spirited defense - I polar flipped on liability a few posts back

Gilco2

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#684550 11-Sep-2012 18:33

KevinL:
gzt:
KevinL: The bus wasn't turning, it was continuing straight onto Montreal Street. The OP in the right lane was turning left, across the path of the bus. Yes, the intersection is a bit confusing if you've never come across it before - but that's why it's clearly marked on the road and signposted.

The above is semantically true once you have defined the correct behavior - but it is not true in a physical sense.

There is no doubt the bus was turning. After the turn it would have continued on Montreal Street.

The OP was following the road markings and going in a straight line.

An accident was the result. There are no doubt a large number of near misses and just in time corrections in additiona to accidents.

I have seen other instances where the same road name continues after a dog leg. Some legs be quite long and it would be madness to apply this one way scheme to them without a free left and island system.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this point - in my mind, the OP was making a left turn from the right lane, across the established direction of traffic as dictated by the road markings and signage.

It'll be interesting what the outcome of the insurance assessment is!

Well Kevin I am fully in agreement with you on this one. I dont live in the cold south but if markings are still same as street maps and google earth then the op clearly in the wrong. I dont see it as confusing myself. BUT if markings arent the same due to the earthquake etc then a different story

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