Backhaul in Wairoa

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#1322175 10-Jun-2015 14:22

DonGould: [snip] Note to readers - I have no idea what John drives

Rumour has it, a fleet of matt black helicopters ;-)

DonGould

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#1322255 10-Jun-2015 15:39

RunningMan:
DonGould: [snip] Note to readers - I have no idea what John drives

Rumour has it, a fleet of matt black helicopters ;-)

...so he's really Kim Dotcom?

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#1324352 14-Jun-2015 09:43

Bilbo2021: @DonGould

Also a few things to consider, Wairoa is flat we do not have high buildings or hills to contend with and the township is relatively evenly dispersed ... from a physical perspective i think we are well suited to a commercial grade, small town Wifi network.

Thats actually your biggest problem. Being flat is -not good-
5ghz wont go through walls
2ghz only has 3 channels

So when an AP on one pole can see 20 other AP's, and there are only 3 channels for them all to use, there is interference issues. And wifi doesnt like the slightest bit of interference.

Cellular networks love hills because they block frequencies and the same channel can be used on each side of the hill.

I used to live in wairoa and think its a lovely town, but it needs to actually be submitting as part of the ROI process to get the UFB. When UFB is in the town, businesses can move there, staff can telecommute and jobs will be created.

Thats the actual problem. Wairoa needs more jobs. And wifi wont really solve that.

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#1324354 14-Jun-2015 09:45

Bilbo2021: @DonGould

Yes i agree with all your points we are also looking at some private 6ghz ranges where required.

6ghz has a minimum front-to-back ratio on the antennas - which means very large antennas.
It also has a point to point requirement, and minimum distance of 20kms.

Its not for point-to-multipoint systems

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knoydart

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#1324480 14-Jun-2015 16:10

Bilbo2021: @DonGould

Yes i agree with all your points we are also looking at some private 6ghz ranges where required.

There are no private management rights at 6 GHz. The closest you will find (from memory ) is down at 3.5 GHz.

Also as Ray pointed out, you have a number of requirements to build at 6 GHz and add to them an n+1 rule for link robustness. If you are looking outside the GURL frequencies, a radio engineer is a must.

DonGould

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#1324803 15-Jun-2015 10:34

raytaylor:... it needs to actually be submitting as part of the ROI process to get the UFB. When UFB is in the town, businesses can move there, staff can telecommute and jobs will be created.

Thats the actual problem. Wairoa needs more jobs. And wifi wont really solve that.

Ray I respectfully disagree with you.

The problem, as expressed and clearly understood by the council, is that the cost of Chorus and UFB/RBI delivered solutions is that the entry cost is simply to high because the base wholesale product is just to expensive to build a viable retail product on, that will be in a price point that these people will pay for.

I agree with you that the town needs more employment, if the people actually want to work. This is one of the foundation problems in my area, the people's willingness to work.

What we do know is that work often has to be very flexible for these people. They need to be able to 'stop/start' and do micro amounts of work. The Internet is ideal for this, as you know.

I do agree with you that the solution as presented so far isn't right, but that doesn't mean we should completely write it off either.

My personal interest is in building small micro networks that link into the bigger networks, with consumer friendly technology.

We've done that with great success here in Christchurch and I know others who have done the same around the South Island.

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#1325719 16-Jun-2015 12:54

Reading through the comments it appears that it is bad solution looking for the wrong problem to fix. I understand that small towns are trying to remain relevant but having spent time in Masterton, simply throwing technology at the problem isn't going to fix underlying problems ranging from kids raising kids, teenagers acting up in public and driving people out of the CBD with their loud obnoxious behaviour etc. I'd be more than happy to leave where I am but when you consider all the factors working against someone like me and the attraction of the big city for people who want to escape the cycle of the small town mentality I wonder whether this is a situation of trying to push the old proverbial up the hill.

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#1325726 16-Jun-2015 13:11

An other option to consider would be for the council to install their own xDSL DSLAM's at exchange / cabinets.

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#1325813 16-Jun-2015 14:50

coffeebaron: An other option to consider would be for the council to install their own xDSL DSLAM's at exchange / cabinets.

What's the current ULL cost and what condition is the existing copper in?

Realistically is this viable at all? Given the limited deployment in CBD areas by providers, what are the chances of this happening really?

Also who's going to manage any cross talk issues (Steve do you want to chime in here? )

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#1325821 16-Jun-2015 14:58

kawaii: Reading through the comments it appears that it is bad solution looking for the wrong problem to fix. I understand that small towns are trying to remain relevant but having spent time in Masterton, simply throwing technology at the problem isn't going to fix underlying problems ranging from kids raising kids, teenagers acting up in public and driving people out of the CBD with their loud obnoxious behaviour etc. I'd be more than happy to leave where I am but when you consider all the factors working against someone like me and the attraction of the big city for people who want to escape the cycle of the small town mentality I wonder whether this is a situation of trying to push the old proverbial up the hill.

I agree. You've got a broken town. This is just one of the things that needs to be done to fix it.

But we also have to ask 'is it really broken' or is it just what the people there want it to be?

Where's the real objection here? Are we looking on as outsiders and just projecting our values in on this place? Should we be doing that?

I think these are issues that are being presented to the town in making the PDF presentation. That's why they're raised it as part of their long term plan.

Really delivering 1's to the homes is not hard and the cost isn't really hard to deal with either. Personally I'd just build a hybrid fence line, wireless, OSPF, routed layer 3 network if service cost is really an issue for the town. I'd make it a town project like Chorus made Gigitown a national project and just build it out from the local schools which already have fibre. It could be all done over the summer holidays and completed for a fraction of the budget that they're talking about.

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DarthKermit

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#1326004 16-Jun-2015 19:17

Properties for sale in Hawkes Bay:
Napier: 154
Hastings: 192
Wairoa: 146

http://www.trademe.co.nz/property/residential-property-for-sale/hawke%27s-bay

This proposed wifi thing I doubt will make Wairoa a more desirable place to live.

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#1326007 16-Jun-2015 19:24

DarthKermit: Properties for sale in Hawkes Bay:
Napier: 154
Hastings: 192
Wairoa: 146

http://www.trademe.co.nz/property/residential-property-for-sale/hawke%27s-bay

This proposed wifi thing I doubt will make Wairoa a more desirable place to live.

Not a good statistic... Some agents in some regions do not use Trademe.

Gordy

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sbiddle

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#1326350 17-Jun-2015 10:34

Ignore all the issues with backhaul, authentication, billing, and you get back to one fundamental issue. The proposed design simply can't work because there is no way in the world it's going to deliver adequate 2.4GHz in building coverage.

If you want outdoor 2.4GHz to work you need to use good gear - and Ruckus is one prime example of that. The 7762's Spark are using are the best AP ever built. Period. But even they can't perform miracles when you're dealing with a very flawed approach to network design. Even if you replaced the UBNT AP (which really is a terrible solution, especially with an Omni), you're still not going to deliver the "last mile" coverage that is required.

Until this very simple can be addressed, everything else is largely irrelevant.

DonGould

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#1326393 17-Jun-2015 11:34

sbiddle: Ignore all the issues with backhaul, authentication, billing, and you get back to one fundamental issue. The proposed design simply can't work because there is no way in the world it's going to deliver adequate 2.4GHz in building coverage.

If you want outdoor 2.4GHz to work you need to use good gear - and Ruckus is one prime example of that. The 7762's Spark are using are the best AP ever built. Period. But even they can't perform miracles when you're dealing with a very flawed approach to network design. Even if you replaced the UBNT AP (which really is a terrible solution, especially with an Omni), you're still not going to deliver the "last mile" coverage that is required.

Until this very simple can be addressed, everything else is largely irrelevant.

Are they suggesting using 2.4GHz on an Omni? I confess I didn't read the document that closely.

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#1327514 18-Jun-2015 20:14

With the great WiFi proposal by the Wairoa Council, I am not expecting any great push in support of UFB fibre installation.

I believe that submissions for UFB fibre have to be made by 3 July.

Gordy

My first ever AM radio network connection was with a 1MHz AM crystal(OA91) radio receiver.

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