EV (electric vehicle) News & Discussion

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2123 posts

Uber Geek

#2644181 29-Jan-2021 16:50

Technofreak:

I don't think the spokesman is saying anything about the poor at all. The PM is telling Kiwis generally to spend more to purchase environmentally friendly options, no mention of subsidy.

Based on the very high proportion of Japanese used imports on our roads I'd say a very high proportion of the population don't have the money to spend the extra required to buy an equivalent EV. I bought a new car about 18 months ago, there was no way I could afford an equivalent EV and I'm not what I'd call poor. Certainly not rich either but probably better off than a good proportion of the population.

What did you buy instead?

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#2644295 30-Jan-2021 08:22

Scott3:

Plenty of people exist that can afford a new EV, but don't feel the current pricepoints of new EV's offers value compared to the petrol alterntives.

Subsidies are mostly about getting more adoption, by tipping those at the margins towards the government favored outcome.

For example the USA has a USD7500 tax credit available for those purchasing an EV. For those with enough tax liability it effectively works as a subsidy. USD7500 = NZD10,450

Take somebody shopping for a new mini as an example. Lets assume they have off street parking, and that the car is replacing a 6 year old mini which never left they city, as the outer car in the household is x5 which they perfer for out of town trips. And lets assume the buyer doesn't really care what fuel their car runs on.

Current 3 door mini pricing:

Cooper: $41,900 base
Cooper S: $51,000 base
Cooper works: $59,000 base
Mini Electric (cooper SE): $59,990

A number of friends have bought new cars in the last couple of years. All hybrids. When I asked about an EV they were a bit meh. Seems to be a bit out there (not everyone is a car buff or reads these threads they just want a car) The big deal with these purchases was the LOW litres/100km numbers. Fuel saving. They wanted to pay a regular new car price and save fuel costs. They didn't want to buy a $40,000 car yet pay $60,000. Thats a LOT of petrol. Why save fuel costs on an EV when you have to pay $20,000 extra? What about RUC? The 30c per litre equivalent will become $1 per litre equivalent, that's over half the cost of petrol so not that big a saving and extends the recovery of the premium.

Not my exact opinions, but its probably representative for regular car owners. But I share some of the sentiments. The Govt might say pay a little more, but a $40,000 car for $60,000 is a lot more. What sort of ICE/hybrid could they get for $60,000? A much better one than the $40,000 ICE.

NZ doesn't actively advertise EV's, so they will appear to the masses as a bit out there. Maybe its not worth it as imports are low, what comes into NZ is low volume, they all sell, why advertise? We are holding off a new car purchase. If there was a subsidy, AND if Im guaranteed 5 years no RUC, AND I can choose an EV that suits me, I don't want a shopping trolley, nor do I want to pay 80k on a decent range, with what will be an average car not a premium car

My main gripe is what is the cost of a brand new ICE and transmission? HEAPS. Whats the cost of a 20 part EV engine? It can't be that much. Not compared to the size and complexity of a new ICE and transmission. Batteries yes they are a cost. Id imagine that the manufacturing cost of both is similar. So, they are recovering R+D. I dont what to pay 60-80k then after a few short years the EVs are back to regular prices.

Its not that people don't what EV's, there are or appear to be, a few gotcha's. NZ is a low wage economy, money matters.

MarkH67

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Ultimate Geek

#2644315 30-Jan-2021 09:14

The current price of EVs in NZ has nothing to do with recovering R&D or the production cost even. It is purely supply & demand - as long as the supply is severely limited, the price will remain high. Hopefully more cars will come into NZ over the next few years and the prices will get more competitive. Just don't expect cheaper prices while they can't keep up with demand. We need more EVs to be coming into NZ - more Hyundais, more Minis some VW ID3s, etc.

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#2644317 30-Jan-2021 09:18

Ok, if that's the case then it will be a long wait, buy a PHEV and leave it at that I guess

Technofreak

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#2644358 30-Jan-2021 11:09

Obraik:

Technofreak:

I don't think the spokesman is saying anything about the poor at all. The PM is telling Kiwis generally to spend more to purchase environmentally friendly options, no mention of subsidy.

Based on the very high proportion of Japanese used imports on our roads I'd say a very high proportion of the population don't have the money to spend the extra required to buy an equivalent EV. I bought a new car about 18 months ago, there was no way I could afford an equivalent EV and I'm not what I'd call poor. Certainly not rich either but probably better off than a good proportion of the population.

What did you buy instead?

Holden Commodore. Any EV close to my requirements was at the very least $20,000 more.

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SaltyNZ

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#2644636 31-Jan-2021 08:33

tdgeek:

Ok, if that's the case then it will be a long wait, buy a PHEV and leave it at that I guess

We have an Ioniq PHEV at work as a pool car. In December I drove it for the first time from Auckland to Hamilton and back for a site visit so I got to feel it both with a full charge and running completely on ICE boost. Having done that, I can categorically state that I will never buy a PHEV. They're just ... horrible to drive. They don't go immediately like an EV, and they don't have consistent lag + power like a conventional car. Once the battery is flat, you might be sitting at a roundabout waiting for a gap, see one and put your foot down. Then nothing happens. Then it realises you want to go and sort of lurches a bit but gives you no real power and then eventually decides you're serious and starts to move but feels as if you're dragging the two cars behind you as well. Meanwhile that gap is getting narrower...

I can see why we've had it for three years and it still only has about 30,000km on it. I hated it.

I would buy an ICE over a PHEV. It definitely gives the whole 'EV' thing a really bad name.

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frankv

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#2644644 31-Jan-2021 09:47

Technofreak:
I bought a new car about 18 months ago, there was no way I could afford an equivalent EV and I'm not what I'd call poor. Certainly not rich either but probably better off than a good proportion of the population.

Financially, I think I'm similar to you. But almost everyone who owns a house has the potential to borrow the extra money to buy an EV. So let's put some numbers on it....

A $20k price premium is about (ballpark, for easy maths) 10k litres of 91 @ 8L/100km = 120K Km. Electricity is about 1/4 the price of petrol, so you need to drive 120k × 4/3 = 160k km to get your $20k back. (Someone please check my math). At 20k km/year, that's an 8 year payback time.

Add in the interest on the $20k and potentially RUC, subtract expected maintenance savings if you like. Maybe consider changing the car every 3 or 4 years, and whether your secondhand EV will maintain its value relative to your ICE alternative or not.

But, all in all, it doesn't look attractive to me.

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#2644649 31-Jan-2021 10:05

Having done that, I can categorically state that I will never buy a PHEV. They're just ... horrible to drive. They don't go immediately like an EV, and they don't have consistent lag + power like a conventional car.

If there is a next time - look for the mode button. Most start in 'Eco' mode which is not great for some traffic situations. Toyota uses one press of the 'Eco' button to go to a normal mode, and has a separate 'PWR' button for power mode. Hyundai might call it Sport mode or Manual mode. It makes some difference.

I'm also going to guess it's sensible to leave the EV/Hybrid switch in 'Automatic' mode for longer trips.

morrisk

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#2644656 31-Jan-2021 10:42

frankv:
Technofreak:
I bought a new car about 18 months ago, there was no way I could afford an equivalent EV and I'm not what I'd call poor. Certainly not rich either but probably better off than a good proportion of the population.

Financially, I think I'm similar to you. But almost everyone who owns a house has the potential to borrow the extra money to buy an EV. So let's put some numbers on it....

A $20k price premium is about (ballpark, for easy maths) 10k litres of 91 @ 8L/100km = 120K Km. Electricity is about 1/4 the price of petrol, so you need to drive 120k × 4/3 = 160k km to get your $20k back. (Someone please check my math). At 20k km/year, that's an 8 year payback time.

Add in the interest on the $20k and potentially RUC, subtract expected maintenance savings if you like. Maybe consider changing the car every 3 or 4 years, and whether your secondhand EV will maintain its value relative to your ICE alternative or not.

But, all in all, it doesn't look attractive to me.

I guess you have to look at the reason that EVs have come into consideration at all - it is about looking to reduce/mitigate the effects of climate change. If we do nothing the outlook certainly doesn't look attractive. Perhaps accepting an 8 year payback is the price we may have to pay for a more attractive future for our children/grandchildren?

There are certainly upsides to driving an EV even if there may be some financial pain - quiet, smooth, responsive and a pleasure to drive from my personal experience of driving one for more than 3 years and 55,000 km.

Dinga96

123 posts

Master Geek

#2644701 31-Jan-2021 13:17

Agree ,this is basically what it boils down to ,there is no getting away from it. It's like the elephant in the room and it bothers me that a lot of folks are happy to keep driving off to work every day in their ice vehicle with out a second thought.

I know it shouldn't and that I can not expect people to make the switch to electric vehicles just because myself and others have. We need strong leadership now from our elected government to encourage people to make the switch.

tdgeek

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#2644755 31-Jan-2021 15:07

Dinga96:

Agree ,this is basically what it boils down to ,there is no getting away from it. It's like the elephant in the room and it bothers me that a lot of folks are happy to keep driving off to work every day in their ice vehicle with out a second thought.

I know it shouldn't and that I can not expect people to make the switch to electric vehicles just because myself and others have. We need strong leadership now from our elected government to encourage people to make the switch.

I concur with Frank. There is a financial disadvantage with EV's. Same with Solar. By the time payback has occurred, its time to replace it. Off course that can vary and off course some use cases make it financially worthwhile (Lots of annual mileage, or I love My Tesla its worth $65k, EV or not, so the EV side is "free", or my old secondhand EV was cheap)

And while many here may spout being green, I think you will find that the masses are into fuel savings and the being green is a side bonus. If an EV was very similar in price but still had a premium they will go EV, but its for the same reason, fuel saving.

tdgeek

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#2644762 31-Jan-2021 15:08

Dinga96:

Agree ,this is basically what it boils down to ,there is no getting away from it. It's like the elephant in the room and it bothers me that a lot of folks are happy to keep driving off to work every day in their ice vehicle with out a second thought.

I know it shouldn't and that I can not expect people to make the switch to electric vehicles just because myself and others have. We need strong leadership now from our elected government to encourage people to make the switch.

Consumer EV's are not the elephant in the room. Taxi's, rentals, commercial vehicles are. Shopping trolleys won't save the world.

Dinga96

123 posts

Master Geek

#2644784 31-Jan-2021 16:14

tdgeek:

Dinga96:

Agree ,this is basically what it boils down to ,there is no getting away from it. It's like the elephant in the room and it bothers me that a lot of folks are happy to keep driving off to work every day in their ice vehicle with out a second thought.

I know it shouldn't and that I can not expect people to make the switch to electric vehicles just because myself and others have. We need strong leadership now from our elected government to encourage people to make the switch.

Consumer EV's are not the elephant in the room. Taxi's, rentals, commercial vehicles are. Shopping trolleys won't save the world.

td geek sorry but that's not really what I was alluding to in my elephant in the room comment. I was referring to Morrisk's post.

Commercial vehicles are big polluters for sure as indeed imo are daily drivers. When you say shopping trolleys ,what do you mean exactly?

tdgeek

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#2644816 31-Jan-2021 18:41

Dinga96:

td geek sorry but that's not really what I was alluding to in my elephant in the room comment. I was referring to Morrisk's post.

Commercial vehicles are big polluters for sure as indeed imo are daily drivers. When you say shopping trolleys ,what do you mean exactly?

Morris stated that "some financial pain" . Well, $20,000 premium for most consumers is more than "some" financial pain.

Commercial polluters are substantial. Taxi's, daily driven commercial vehicles, reps cars. They do a lot of mileage per vehicle, whereas due to range anxiety, many EV's are highly suited to commuting, shopping, school runs, which is not a high mileage. And when some say that they will keep the ICE car for holidays, well, they are buying two lots of production emissions when they just need one. Two rego's, two WOF two insurances, may as well just keep the one car, the ICE. So, I don't see massive emissions gain there. Shopping trolleys are small cars, we will add a small EV for the around town runs.

morrisk

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#2644821 31-Jan-2021 19:06

tdgeek:

Dinga96:

td geek sorry but that's not really what I was alluding to in my elephant in the room comment. I was referring to Morrisk's post.

Commercial vehicles are big polluters for sure as indeed imo are daily drivers. When you say shopping trolleys ,what do you mean exactly?

Morris stated that "some financial pain" . Well, $20,000 premium for most consumers is more than "some" financial pain.

Commercial polluters are substantial. Taxi's, daily driven commercial vehicles, reps cars. They do a lot of mileage per vehicle, whereas due to range anxiety, many EV's are highly suited to commuting, shopping, school runs, which is not a high mileage. And when some say that they will keep the ICE car for holidays, well, they are buying two lots of production emissions when they just need one. Two rego's, two WOF two insurances, may as well just keep the one car, the ICE. So, I don't see massive emissions gain there. Shopping trolleys are small cars, we will add a small EV for the around town runs.

To be clear my use case for my car is not as a shopping trolley. I live in the centre of the city and walk to work, grocery shopping etc. My EV car use is mainly for regular journeys that are 550km one way. In spite of what many think an EV is perfect for this type of use.

The "financial pain" was quantified by the previous poster as being a pay back of 8 years which is not out of the way for many. Agree there are others who cannot manage this. Hopefully action flowing from the Climate Commission report released today will help in this regard.

I am dismayed to read the sales figures for expensive ICE cars - clearly those buying these cars could afford an EV and in doing so would make some small contribution to a better future for our grandchildren.

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